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brennan you certainly have had a lot of

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jobs i'm a bit of a spark plug

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and uh human resources lady oh you know

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it's actually it's pam

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i'm sorry well pan no

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my name is pam okay first of all i

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needed someone to show your mouth

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shall you show your mouth oh okay i

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think we've had one second

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i needed someone will you show your

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mouth shall you show your mouth i'm

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sorry what are you

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just coming off stupid i'm coming off as

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stupid you're wearing tuxedos to a job

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that requires you to clean bathrooms

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please leave this office we're done with

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this interview do we get any sort of

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souvenir

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get out of my office now i could try and

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explain how that clip from step brothers

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relates to this show

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but that would just be throwing gas on

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the fire here's a clip from my interview

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with andrew holicek

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why there's resistance to just calling

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out sue blackmart you quoted her in the

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paper did you who she was

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i know who sue is so for sure yeah i

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mean she's an interesting character

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it's so again i'm trying to get even

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within that my friend i'm just trying to

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be a little bit more clear about where

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you want me to go with this why'd you

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quote sue blackmore as an example of

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that

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because she has some interesting things

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to say what does she have that's

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interesting to say

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well i mean she has she has a very uh

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kind of vast array of contributions i

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i'm not she does terribly anything

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interesting to say

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because she thinks consciousness is an

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illusion and an epiphenomenon of the

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brain

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she got that question wrong on the test

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so she wasn't allowed to go to part

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b c d well we you keep saying that but

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you got to won't go there

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it's it's there where do you where do

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you want me to go i don't know

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oh man come on so really what do you

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think

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you heard both these guys what do you

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think well again i'm just

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i'm trying to just be a little bit

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articulate what do i think about what

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because they both covered some amazing

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topics so what did you think was amazing

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well i mean again what i find

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provocative and i'm not here to judge

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either of them that's just not the way i

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roll

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what i find compelling i'm always

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judging everyone i hate when people say

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that of course you're they're judging

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positively or judging negatively but

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judge feel free this is a

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a judge-friendly zone what i find

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compelling about what charlie says

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is that again we live in a universe in a

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world

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where there is plenty of room for other

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forms of reality

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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i'm your host alex sacaris and today we

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welcome andrew holick to skeptico

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andrew is the author of books like dream

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yoga

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illuminating your life through lucid

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dreaming and the tibetan yogis of sleep

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and preparing to die practical advice

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and spiritual wisdom from the tibetan

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buddhist

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tradition so we're definitely going to

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want to talk about

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all of that especially as it relates to

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the recent conversations

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i've been having with just had lucid

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dream teacher

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charlie morley who you may have heard of

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him okay so that's interesting

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and i think andrew's work also relates

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to this larger project i've been on in

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terms of

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diving into a deep look at extended

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consciousness and how these different

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perspectives

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might fit together or might not fit

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together we don't want to force things

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that don't fit

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now one of the really cool things i've

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found about

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andrew is that he's really smart and

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there's no substitute for that i mean

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that uh seriously as you've listened to

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a lot of these shows oh he has

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a doctorate in dental studies but before

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that he was

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in graduate level physics classes he's

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really smart in that way

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being a dentist isn't really his thing

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but

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because he's this cool spiritual guy and

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he has this dentistry thing

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it led him to create the global dental

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relief project

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a humanitarian organization that

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provides dental work

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for people who wouldn't otherwise get it

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all over the world so

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that's really cool does all sorts of

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that stuff also has for example just to

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play off on this thing so then i run

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across an article he's published on

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an ieee publication which is like really

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hard to do

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lucid virtual dreaming and descendants

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and consequence

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of virtual lucidity during virtual

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threat

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i mean this guy is kind of next level

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smart

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but he also breaks things down in a way

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that's understandable

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for all of us so there's a lot we can

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talk about including

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some questions about the tough stuff he

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published and

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post that i think is really important on

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his website called the evolution

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of abuse a piece that kind of dies deep

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into this question that's on a lot of

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our minds

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people in the spiritual community and

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why buddhist monks have

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joined the ranks of other non-dual

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teachers and wind up looking

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like these pedo pope figures that we see

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on tv

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all too often what's going on there

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so i'm really looking forward to this

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conversation before we get started one

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last thing i wanted to

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make a special thanks out there to jp a

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skeptical listener

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who suggested andrew and actually did

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the first

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reach out to connect to him so

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i'm looking forward to this one it's

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gonna be fun

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andrew welcome to skeptico thanks for

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joining me

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yeah thanks alex thanks for the great

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introduction and glad to spend some time

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with you

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well let's introduce you i gave folks

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kind of a

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thumbnail sketch but please fill in

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who's andrew holicek yeah well i mean

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we can take that pretty far right i mean

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ramana maharshi's central spiritual

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investigation who am i

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yeah i mean on a relative level i'm this

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guy that really approaches

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the nature of mind and reality through

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an integral perspective

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so i bring and gather and harness truth

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wherever i can get it i don't really

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care where it comes from

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i drink the tibetan buddhist kool-aid

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just because there is some truth to the

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zen adage

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chase two rabbits catch none and so

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while that's my

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path i've done a three year retreat um

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i've been serious student of that

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tradition for

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decades three year retreat i mean

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that's to talk people through what that

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means it's

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quite an accomplishment really yeah they

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give you the title llama when you come

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out but i'm the kind of llama there's

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two types of llama

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there's llamas teacher and guru and

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there's the llama that just carries crap

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around

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i'm that kind of llama so yeah but

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thanks for asking

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in the in the tibetan kind of

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progression of training practices

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tibetan buddhism

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several hundred years ago if if not

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longer

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they instituted a really compelling

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rigorous rigorous

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type of monastic contemplative training

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three-year three-month retreat where you

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it's like going into a

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meditation university where during the

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course of three years

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really 16 hours a day very intensive

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practice but also incredibly well

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supported

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one has this precious precious

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opportunity

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with zero distractions i mean you're

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literally locked away from the world

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i you i became a monk and shave the head

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and robes and the whole thing

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but alex what it allows one to do is

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in the most concentrated protected way

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to take a really deep dive into the

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center of yourself

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and so i had the great good fortune of

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engaging in

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i don't know 40 50 different types of

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meditations

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these days meditation is a catch-all

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phrase it's a little bit like sport

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and when you say sport there are

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hundreds of sports

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and so meditation there are hundreds of

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meditations and so

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it was a really incredible opportunity

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to just

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dive deep into the elegance and the

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sophistication of one of the world's

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great wisdom traditions

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and the kind of spiritual curricula that

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they've developed

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and i have to say it was it was hands

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down the most transformative thing i've

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ever done in my life but

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it was also the most painful it gave

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birth to my first book when i came out

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the power and the pain

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which is all about understanding

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spiritual hardship and why why is it so

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bloody hard to wake up and grow up on

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the spiritual path what is that all

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about

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but for me it just it just created such

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a tremendous appreciation for

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the skill set these kind of spiritual

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technologies

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that especially the tibetans have come

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up with that allow you to meditate

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literally when you're dreaming when

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you're sleeping

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in sexual activity i mean every

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conceivable possible

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state of mind can be explored

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with this armamentarium the skill set of

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meditative tools

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and for that i feel profoundly grateful

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but it was it cost me everything i lost

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my

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kind of death for me

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but that's where really growth takes

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place growth doesn't take place when

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you're

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sitting on the beach with a margarita

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hat fat happy growth

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takes place when you're tested and

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stretched so lots to say about that my

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friend but in short it really was a

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before and after experience i mean i

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came out of that

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completely transformed and have spent

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the entirety of my life since then

286
00:09:28,470 --> 00:09:25,200
fundamentally trying to stabilize the

287
00:09:30,550 --> 00:09:28,480
insights that were derived from such a

288
00:09:32,310 --> 00:09:30,560
tremendous kind of spiritual incubator

289
00:09:33,670 --> 00:09:32,320
so many things were really born in that

290
00:09:35,509 --> 00:09:33,680
type of container

291
00:09:37,269 --> 00:09:35,519
and now the charter of my life is to

292
00:09:39,110 --> 00:09:37,279
extend it to

293
00:09:40,790 --> 00:09:39,120
virtually every state and that's part

294
00:09:42,870 --> 00:09:40,800
part of what i do with the books that i

295
00:09:44,949 --> 00:09:42,880
write about dream yoga sleep yoga bardo

296
00:09:47,430 --> 00:09:44,959
yoga which works with deaf and dying

297
00:09:49,030 --> 00:09:47,440
so yeah in a nutshell that's the kind of

298
00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:49,040
what the three year retreat is all about

299
00:09:51,269 --> 00:09:49,680
and

300
00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:51,279
highly recommended if people want to

301
00:09:54,470 --> 00:09:52,720
take a deep dive into the nature of

302
00:09:56,150 --> 00:09:54,480
themselves there's really no better way

303
00:09:57,590 --> 00:09:56,160
to do it than that

304
00:09:59,509 --> 00:09:57,600
i understand it can be really tough i

305
00:10:01,750 --> 00:09:59,519
wonder i'm sure you had some

306
00:10:02,710 --> 00:10:01,760
dark nights of the soul i've heard from

307
00:10:06,150 --> 00:10:02,720
oh my goodness

308
00:10:07,990 --> 00:10:06,160
things started to happen so quickly

309
00:10:09,750 --> 00:10:08,000
that i really couldn't keep track and so

310
00:10:10,150 --> 00:10:09,760
i just ended up keeping all these types

311
00:10:14,550 --> 00:10:10,160
of

312
00:10:16,710 --> 00:10:14,560
it's a little bit like the

313
00:10:17,670 --> 00:10:16,720
the radical iconoclastic teacher

314
00:10:20,550 --> 00:10:17,680
famously said

315
00:10:21,910 --> 00:10:20,560
meditation isn't a sedative it's a

316
00:10:24,389 --> 00:10:21,920
laxative

317
00:10:26,230 --> 00:10:24,399
and so it was like i i mixed my

318
00:10:29,030 --> 00:10:26,240
analogies here it was like a three-year

319
00:10:30,829 --> 00:10:29,040
detox experience for me it was like

320
00:10:33,670 --> 00:10:30,839
engaging in

321
00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:33,680
laxatives laxative type practices

322
00:10:39,430 --> 00:10:36,720
where all this repressed stuff

323
00:10:41,509 --> 00:10:39,440
just comes up and that's really that's

324
00:10:44,150 --> 00:10:41,519
kind of part and parcel when you sign

325
00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:44,160
the contract in deep spiritual practice

326
00:10:47,190 --> 00:10:44,560
all

327
00:10:48,949 --> 00:10:47,200
the repressed unconscious elements have

328
00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:48,959
to come into the light of consciousness

329
00:10:52,150 --> 00:10:50,800
otherwise your awakening is not complete

330
00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:52,160
and this ties into what you were

331
00:10:55,190 --> 00:10:53,920
intimating earlier

332
00:10:57,269 --> 00:10:55,200
about the difference that we can get

333
00:10:58,710 --> 00:10:57,279
into later between waking up and growing

334
00:11:00,870 --> 00:10:58,720
up that the spiritual

335
00:11:01,829 --> 00:11:00,880
people have a lot to offer but it's not

336
00:11:03,670 --> 00:11:01,839
everything and so

337
00:11:05,350 --> 00:11:03,680
so many experiences my friend um

338
00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:05,360
probably one of the most compelling for

339
00:11:07,430 --> 00:11:06,160
me

340
00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:07,440
and again i can talk kind of on the

341
00:11:11,509 --> 00:11:08,800
hardship end of it but one of the most

342
00:11:14,470 --> 00:11:11,519
compelling for me was when i was doing

343
00:11:16,389 --> 00:11:14,480
exhaustive daytime practices and

344
00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:16,399
nighttime practices and dream yoga and

345
00:11:21,430 --> 00:11:18,240
illusory form where

346
00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:21,440
you're doing this stuff 24 7 and you can

347
00:11:26,310 --> 00:11:23,200
really enter these

348
00:11:27,509 --> 00:11:26,320
quite beautiful states of mind

349
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:27,519
where you can't really tell the

350
00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:29,279
difference between day and night you

351
00:11:35,110 --> 00:11:29,680
you're

352
00:11:37,110 --> 00:11:35,120
equanimous democratic nature of mind and

353
00:11:39,190 --> 00:11:37,120
reality where you fundamentally see that

354
00:11:41,509 --> 00:11:39,200
everything is a display of the mind

355
00:11:44,389 --> 00:11:41,519
that was a monumental insight for me and

356
00:11:46,150 --> 00:11:44,399
one reason i'm so passionate now about

357
00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:46,160
what i refer to as this family of

358
00:11:49,509 --> 00:11:47,920
nocturnal meditations i mean i

359
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:49,519
have two more books coming out on that

360
00:11:53,269 --> 00:11:51,360
just this summer but in terms of the

361
00:11:55,829 --> 00:11:53,279
hardships oh lordy i mean here's

362
00:11:56,550 --> 00:11:55,839
it really did feel like like a detox i

363
00:11:59,269 --> 00:11:56,560
mean i

364
00:12:00,710 --> 00:11:59,279
i had a little room it was a group

365
00:12:02,949 --> 00:12:00,720
retreat by design

366
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:02,959
because you need others there to kind of

367
00:12:06,710 --> 00:12:04,800
rub up against right

368
00:12:08,230 --> 00:12:06,720
to throw through all your projections

369
00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:08,240
out against and so

370
00:12:11,269 --> 00:12:09,760
i had a little room and i had a little

371
00:12:13,269 --> 00:12:11,279
meditation box literally

372
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:13,279
i came to call it ego's coffin i

373
00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:14,320
literally slept

374
00:12:18,389 --> 00:12:16,480
sitting up so i was in a meditation

375
00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:18,399
posture 20 hours a day

376
00:12:21,509 --> 00:12:20,079
it may seem just insane from the

377
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:21,519
outsides like why would you

378
00:12:25,910 --> 00:12:24,399
do this well what happens is it's really

379
00:12:27,509 --> 00:12:25,920
interesting alex we are we are

380
00:12:30,629 --> 00:12:27,519
fundamentally

381
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:30,639
addicted to uh movement we're we're

382
00:12:34,550 --> 00:12:33,360
addicted to thought in vajrayana tantric

383
00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:34,560
language

384
00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:36,240
thought is literally called movement of

385
00:12:41,990 --> 00:12:38,959
mind and we don't realize

386
00:12:45,110 --> 00:12:42,000
how we're junkies to movement until

387
00:12:47,350 --> 00:12:45,120
all movement is restricted and so when i

388
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:47,360
was so confined

389
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:49,360
i find myself really just having a super

390
00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:51,120
hard time and then asking really deep

391
00:12:55,030 --> 00:12:52,000
questions like why

392
00:12:56,870 --> 00:12:55,040
is this so hard i'm basically just

393
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:56,880
sitting here doing nothing

394
00:13:01,110 --> 00:12:58,959
why is it so hard and then through a

395
00:13:02,870 --> 00:13:01,120
long-winded kind of process of deep

396
00:13:04,949 --> 00:13:02,880
inquiry and investigation i

397
00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:04,959
fundamentally came to the realization

398
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:05,760
that

399
00:13:09,269 --> 00:13:07,920
this retreat isn't hard and by

400
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:09,279
extrapolation you can say

401
00:13:15,670 --> 00:13:12,320
life isn't hard i am

402
00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:15,680
i'm the one that's hard and so retreat

403
00:13:18,310 --> 00:13:17,600
was kind of pulverizing me it was

404
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:18,320
basically

405
00:13:23,430 --> 00:13:21,360
deconstructing my reifying tendencies

406
00:13:24,310 --> 00:13:23,440
where i make everything so bloody solid

407
00:13:28,470 --> 00:13:24,320
and

408
00:13:30,069 --> 00:13:28,480
my room

409
00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,079
after the first couple months with real

410
00:13:34,389 --> 00:13:32,480
sense of fear and anxiety

411
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:34,399
and then asking like why why am i so

412
00:13:37,829 --> 00:13:36,079
afraid why is this so hard

413
00:13:39,910 --> 00:13:37,839
and he said oh my gosh i'm i'm i'm

414
00:13:42,069 --> 00:13:39,920
basically um

415
00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:42,079
in detox here i'm in detox from western

416
00:13:45,910 --> 00:13:44,480
civilization i'm in detox from ego i'm

417
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:45,920
in detox from

418
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:47,519
everything you could even say in a

419
00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:50,480
certain sense the the cursed side

420
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:53,360
of the cult of scientific materialism i

421
00:13:56,389 --> 00:13:55,680
was just basically detoxifying from that

422
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:56,399
and it was

423
00:13:59,350 --> 00:13:58,079
it was really challenging and i so i

424
00:14:00,870 --> 00:13:59,360
throw this out for people who are

425
00:14:02,230 --> 00:14:00,880
interested in deep spiritual practice

426
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:02,240
because

427
00:14:05,990 --> 00:14:03,600
certainly my experience i can't speak

428
00:14:07,509 --> 00:14:06,000
for everybody is that deep spiritual

429
00:14:08,310 --> 00:14:07,519
practice is not really about feeling

430
00:14:11,189 --> 00:14:08,320
good

431
00:14:12,949 --> 00:14:11,199
it's about getting real and getting real

432
00:14:15,829 --> 00:14:12,959
includes feeling pretty crappy

433
00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:15,839
and if we can't open the aperture of our

434
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:17,600
awareness and embrace unwanted

435
00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:18,880
experiences

436
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:21,040
then we're just lost in a kind of a new

437
00:14:23,829 --> 00:14:22,079
age fallacy that

438
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:23,839
spirituality isn't just a feel-good

439
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:26,399
project there's some validity to what

440
00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:28,880
joseph campbell said follow your bliss

441
00:14:32,069 --> 00:14:30,240
but if you just follow your bliss you're

442
00:14:34,629 --> 00:14:32,079
going to get blissed out

443
00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:34,639
i find it equally valid if not more so

444
00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:36,480
for deep divers to follow your

445
00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:38,480
fear i mean i went into three-year

446
00:14:41,829 --> 00:14:40,000
retreat at that time because i couldn't

447
00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:41,839
think of anything

448
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:44,079
more frightening than having to face my

449
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:46,320
mind without distraction for so long

450
00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:48,800
it was terrifying to me but this maxim

451
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:50,639
follow your fear has been a guiding

452
00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:51,360
point for me

453
00:14:55,269 --> 00:14:53,600
and every time i've done it it's led to

454
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:55,279
the most transformative

455
00:15:00,949 --> 00:14:58,480
illuminative insights because really

456
00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:00,959
darkness is a code word for ignorance

457
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:03,040
fear is an affective expression of

458
00:15:06,389 --> 00:15:04,160
ignorance

459
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:06,399
if you really want to honor it on earth

460
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:08,320
ignorance which by definition is very

461
00:15:14,629 --> 00:15:11,120
hard to do because it's so insidious

462
00:15:17,110 --> 00:15:14,639
i recommend deep divers follow your fear

463
00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:17,120
fear the word interesting alex the word

464
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:18,880
etymologically

465
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:21,680
means comes from a root that means fair

466
00:15:26,389 --> 00:15:23,760
f-a-r-e as in toll

467
00:15:27,829 --> 00:15:26,399
i mean how interesting is that fear is

468
00:15:29,749 --> 00:15:27,839
the fair

469
00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:29,759
that really must be paid to wake up and

470
00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:31,040
if we don't understand that

471
00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:33,600
and we can really riff on this we will

472
00:15:36,069 --> 00:15:34,240
basically

473
00:15:38,470 --> 00:15:36,079
spend the entirety of our lives and i

474
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,480
mean the entirety

475
00:15:42,389 --> 00:15:40,320
in a very sophisticated avoidance

476
00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:42,399
strategy to stay away from this thing

477
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:43,440
called fear

478
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:44,880
and so if you want to go there i'm happy

479
00:15:47,749 --> 00:15:46,240
to go in that direction but i also want

480
00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:47,759
to come up for air and make this a bit

481
00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:50,320
of a conversation so it's not just me

482
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:52,720
riffing over here so long-winded

483
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:54,639
response to a poignant question

484
00:16:01,990 --> 00:15:58,480
so how did that lead to the

485
00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:02,000
dream stuff which is on one hand seems

486
00:16:06,310 --> 00:16:03,360
to be

487
00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:06,320
gaining a lot of popularity and traction

488
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:08,240
you seem to be taking a much more

489
00:16:12,230 --> 00:16:09,440
serious deeper

490
00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:12,240
look at it from a wisdom tradition that

491
00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:13,839
extends way back

492
00:16:17,189 --> 00:16:16,320
not everyone is doing that nowadays some

493
00:16:19,030 --> 00:16:17,199
people are

494
00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:19,040
jumping in with the bio hack how to

495
00:16:22,629 --> 00:16:21,199
lucid dream and a weekend retreat

496
00:16:24,629 --> 00:16:22,639
not saying there's anything wrong with

497
00:16:27,670 --> 00:16:24,639
that either but

498
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:27,680
what is how has this become one of the

499
00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:28,880
things that you do

500
00:16:32,389 --> 00:16:30,720
and maybe putting it in a better term

501
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:32,399
what are people

502
00:16:35,509 --> 00:16:34,480
experiencing from your teachings that

503
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:35,519
they're finding most

504
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:37,680
helpful with regard to that yeah well

505
00:16:42,870 --> 00:16:39,600
thank you for that opportunity alex so

506
00:16:43,829 --> 00:16:42,880
a number of things for me dream has come

507
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:43,839
to become a kind of

508
00:16:48,069 --> 00:16:46,000
code word it's very interesting in the

509
00:16:49,350 --> 00:16:48,079
what i call my term the nocturnal

510
00:16:51,670 --> 00:16:49,360
meditations

511
00:16:53,430 --> 00:16:51,680
which by the way just i controlled what

512
00:16:55,509 --> 00:16:53,440
those are just so people know they're

513
00:16:57,509 --> 00:16:55,519
actually five practices in my

514
00:16:58,629 --> 00:16:57,519
cartography of what i call nocturnal

515
00:17:00,310 --> 00:16:58,639
practice

516
00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:00,320
there's what's called liminal dreaming i

517
00:17:05,990 --> 00:17:02,800
can define all these liminal dreaming

518
00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:06,000
lucid dreaming dream yoga

519
00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:09,280
sleep yoga and bardo yoga and

520
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:12,720
these are all nocturnal in itself is a

521
00:17:16,309 --> 00:17:13,120
kind of

522
00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:16,319
code word for subtle so basically when

523
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:17,600
you're working with these nocturnal

524
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:19,039
practices you're working with really

525
00:17:23,029 --> 00:17:20,799
subtle dimensions of mind

526
00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:23,039
specifically the exploration of dream is

527
00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:25,120
very interesting and if you look at

528
00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:27,600
the way the the buddhists talk about

529
00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:29,120
this especially tibetans it's quite

530
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:30,720
compelling because well first of all

531
00:17:35,830 --> 00:17:32,480
etymologically here

532
00:17:37,750 --> 00:17:35,840
but literally means the awakened one

533
00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:37,760
that's super interesting like what did

534
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:38,880
he wake up from

535
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:41,520
what did he wake up to but fundamentally

536
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:44,160
in the in the tibetan arena of dream

537
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:46,080
they talked about three dreams three

538
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:48,160
types of dream it's very interesting

539
00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:50,880
the first is what's called the example

540
00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:51,440
dream

541
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:53,360
or the double i love this term the

542
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:55,120
double delusion

543
00:17:58,150 --> 00:17:57,200
that's the nighttime dream that's the

544
00:18:01,190 --> 00:17:58,160
nighttime dream

545
00:18:02,070 --> 00:18:01,200
the second type of dream is the primary

546
00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:02,080
dream

547
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:05,360
our existence on this plane is on some

548
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:06,880
level illusionary

549
00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:09,360
and then we enter into another state

550
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:10,880
where we exactly

551
00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:13,760
exactly yes exactly exactly so there's a

552
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:16,320
double delusion the example dream

553
00:18:20,470 --> 00:18:18,000
and then of course all the studies of

554
00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:20,480
dream yoga are about using the double

555
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:22,080
delusion

556
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:24,240
to understand the primary illusion

557
00:18:27,669 --> 00:18:25,760
because working with the mind

558
00:18:29,029 --> 00:18:27,679
in the lucid dreaming state is really

559
00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:29,039
like evan thompson

560
00:18:32,789 --> 00:18:30,559
i know he interviewed him he's a dear

561
00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:32,799
friend it's working with a laboratory of

562
00:18:35,909 --> 00:18:33,760
the mind

563
00:18:37,510 --> 00:18:35,919
in in a really interesting refined

564
00:18:38,470 --> 00:18:37,520
distilled state of consciousness the

565
00:18:39,990 --> 00:18:38,480
dream state

566
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:40,000
and so then you take those insights you

567
00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:41,440
extrapolate them back to so-called

568
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:42,720
waking reality this

569
00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:44,960
this is the cult so-called primary dream

570
00:18:47,110 --> 00:18:46,400
and we can talk about what that really

571
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:47,120
means

572
00:18:50,789 --> 00:18:48,480
and then the last dream is what's called

573
00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:50,799
the dream at the end of time

574
00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:53,200
that's the tibetans way of referring to

575
00:18:56,310 --> 00:18:55,600
death which is where bardo yoga comes in

576
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:56,320
bardo

577
00:18:59,830 --> 00:18:58,160
is a tibetan word that means gap

578
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:59,840
transitional process and so

579
00:19:02,950 --> 00:19:01,520
what's super interesting here my friend

580
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:02,960
is that

581
00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:05,440
dream in my deep exploration of all

582
00:19:11,430 --> 00:19:07,840
these iterations of dream

583
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:11,440
dream itself is a is also a code word

584
00:19:15,990 --> 00:19:14,960
for manifestation of mind everything's a

585
00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:16,000
dream

586
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:18,000
and so by understanding and working with

587
00:19:21,270 --> 00:19:19,679
the dream and the nocturnal arena

588
00:19:22,789 --> 00:19:21,280
through lucid dreaming and dream yoga

589
00:19:25,270 --> 00:19:22,799
liminal dreaming

590
00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:25,280
you're basically working with your mind

591
00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:26,480
in that capacity because

592
00:19:30,230 --> 00:19:29,200
maybe people don't think about this but

593
00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:30,240
what is a dream

594
00:19:35,350 --> 00:19:33,039
made of there's no pre-existing

595
00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:35,360
dreamscape that you fall into it's just

596
00:19:40,789 --> 00:19:35,760
you

597
00:19:44,789 --> 00:19:40,799
are a very interesting expression of

598
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:44,799
mind and there's a vast array a spectrum

599
00:19:49,110 --> 00:19:46,000
of dreams from

600
00:19:51,909 --> 00:19:49,120
from pure raw kind of neurological noise

601
00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:51,919
discharge to what are called hyperlucid

602
00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:53,440
dreams of clear light where

603
00:19:57,750 --> 00:19:55,600
you have a dream and these are these are

604
00:19:59,830 --> 00:19:57,760
literally life-changing events like a

605
00:20:01,590 --> 00:19:59,840
near-death experience where

606
00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:01,600
you wake up from just one of these

607
00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:02,960
puppies

608
00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:04,799
and it's a total game changer because

609
00:20:08,950 --> 00:20:06,480
that type of dream

610
00:20:09,909 --> 00:20:08,960
literally is so vibrant so real so hyper

611
00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:09,919
real

612
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:12,640
that when you wake up from that this

613
00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:14,880
appears to be the foggy dream

614
00:20:18,149 --> 00:20:16,480
and then you start asking yourself

615
00:20:21,110 --> 00:20:18,159
really interesting questions

616
00:20:21,669 --> 00:20:21,120
what exactly is the relationship of my

617
00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:21,679
mind

618
00:20:25,590 --> 00:20:24,400
my reality as it expresses itself in the

619
00:20:27,909 --> 00:20:25,600
dream state

620
00:20:29,990 --> 00:20:27,919
and this and according to the wisdom

621
00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:30,000
traditions not just tibetan but most of

622
00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:31,919
the non-dual wisdom traditions

623
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:33,520
one of the things that constitutes

624
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:36,640
so-called enlightenment or awakening

625
00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:38,720
is in fact realizing the utter

626
00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:40,400
equanimous nature of

627
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:42,640
all states of consciousness they're

628
00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:45,679
literally sleeping dreaming dying

629
00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:48,400
all the same literally one taste the

630
00:20:51,669 --> 00:20:49,919
great equanimity everything in the

631
00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:51,679
christian mystical tradition

632
00:20:56,149 --> 00:20:54,799
everything tastes like god and so we can

633
00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:56,159
explore there's so much to say here

634
00:21:00,310 --> 00:20:58,000
that's why i'm so passionate about this

635
00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:00,320
because there's so much untapped natural

636
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:02,480
resources in the nocturnal mind i mean

637
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:04,080
think about this we

638
00:21:09,510 --> 00:21:07,440
we spend a third of our lives asleep 25

639
00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:09,520
percent of that is in the dream state

640
00:21:13,110 --> 00:21:11,120
which means if you do the math that's

641
00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:13,120
about a month a year

642
00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:15,360
that's well over six years during the

643
00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:17,440
course of a lifetime you can get a phd

644
00:21:21,270 --> 00:21:19,520
in less than six years

645
00:21:23,029 --> 00:21:21,280
think about how much you could learn if

646
00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:23,039
you literally literally had

647
00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:25,840
six additional years of consciousness

648
00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:28,000
just what i need andrew one more thing

649
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:30,400
in my freaking to-do list

650
00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:33,679
you have done this deep deep dive into

651
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:35,280
dream yoga and people really need to

652
00:21:38,070 --> 00:21:37,120
check that out and the other book that i

653
00:21:40,549 --> 00:21:38,080
think people

654
00:21:41,990 --> 00:21:40,559
do apparently find really really helpful

655
00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:42,000
and useful and i haven't had a chance to

656
00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:43,760
read to it that's why i say other people

657
00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:45,200
is your book on dying in the dying

658
00:21:48,070 --> 00:21:46,559
process and there's this huge fear of

659
00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:48,080
death in our culture and

660
00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:49,760
that i think is super helpful to people

661
00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:51,520
too i'm going to kind of move it in a

662
00:21:54,710 --> 00:21:52,960
different direction a little bit

663
00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:54,720
as a way of kind of getting back to some

664
00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:55,919
of the things you're talking about

665
00:21:59,270 --> 00:21:56,880
talking about

666
00:22:01,430 --> 00:21:59,280
so i'm listening to interviews you've

667
00:22:03,029 --> 00:22:01,440
done checking out your very excellent

668
00:22:04,470 --> 00:22:03,039
website you have some very thoughtful

669
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:04,480
posts on there

670
00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:05,840
and i definitely encourage people to

671
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:08,880
check that and i ran across one that

672
00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:11,280
really caught my attention a couple of

673
00:22:16,149 --> 00:22:12,080
ways the

674
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:16,159
evolution of abuse and

675
00:22:19,750 --> 00:22:17,520
why don't we talk about that tell us a

676
00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:19,760
little bit about the in general what

677
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:20,640
that's about

678
00:22:24,149 --> 00:22:22,320
and then i want to pick out a quote from

679
00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:24,159
that that i think can propel us

680
00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:26,960
into a further conversation about this

681
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:29,200
stuff yeah i just recently posted this i

682
00:22:33,669 --> 00:22:30,240
actually wrote it

683
00:22:36,070 --> 00:22:33,679
some two years ago when the next

684
00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:36,080
in the never-ending scandals this one

685
00:22:40,310 --> 00:22:37,840
with the shambhala community

686
00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:40,320
um came out and it was like okay here we

687
00:22:44,070 --> 00:22:41,280
go again

688
00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:44,080
the guru sage on the stage from whatever

689
00:22:47,590 --> 00:22:46,000
religious tradition but this always has

690
00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:47,600
been this has been kind of a shock for

691
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:48,400
the buddhist

692
00:22:52,310 --> 00:22:49,760
community and for the non-violent

693
00:22:52,630 --> 00:22:52,320
community we thought if i'm not gone off

694
00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:52,640
we

695
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:56,960
least separate from that or

696
00:23:00,710 --> 00:22:59,440
immune to that and clearly they're not

697
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:00,720
yeah it's just it just

698
00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:03,360
it continues to cause just such a heap

699
00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:04,799
of hurt

700
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:08,240
and so i i finally decided i wrote this

701
00:23:10,470 --> 00:23:08,799
thing

702
00:23:11,990 --> 00:23:10,480
and i had a discussion with some

703
00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:12,000
publishers and and then

704
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:14,640
the topic was so hot we decided to table

705
00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:15,200
it

706
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:16,799
and i decided i'm just not going to

707
00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:18,240
publish it and then

708
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:19,760
a couple months ago i decided what the

709
00:23:22,789 --> 00:23:21,200
heck i'm just going to throw it on my

710
00:23:24,789 --> 00:23:22,799
site just to see what happens and so

711
00:23:27,029 --> 00:23:24,799
just for listeners who are out there

712
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:27,039
it's a i i titled it the evolution of

713
00:23:33,029 --> 00:23:29,760
abuse because it basically

714
00:23:35,669 --> 00:23:33,039
tries to articulate the kind of

715
00:23:36,950 --> 00:23:35,679
vectors of human psychospiritual

716
00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:36,960
development

717
00:23:41,830 --> 00:23:40,080
that really have to be recognized in

718
00:23:44,390 --> 00:23:41,840
order for real awakening

719
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:44,400
to take place and this is where i draw

720
00:23:49,110 --> 00:23:46,400
heavily on

721
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:49,120
what's called integral theory which is

722
00:23:51,909 --> 00:23:49,600
to me

723
00:23:53,909 --> 00:23:51,919
a real gift to the world it has so much

724
00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:53,919
explanatory power so this is ken

725
00:23:57,990 --> 00:23:55,840
wilbur stuff we've talked about not just

726
00:23:59,669 --> 00:23:58,000
ken wilbur no i mean ken wilber is the

727
00:24:01,190 --> 00:23:59,679
is the loudest voice and he's a genius

728
00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:01,200
and he's a dear friend of mine

729
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:03,440
but he pioneered it right i mean so well

730
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:05,440
he he's cutting edge but if you actually

731
00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:06,960
look at integral approaches

732
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:09,520
it goes back quite a bit before him and

733
00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:10,240
he's

734
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:13,840
great contributor

735
00:24:17,190 --> 00:24:15,840
and i rely a lot on his work but he

736
00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:17,200
again he's not the only one there are

737
00:24:21,029 --> 00:24:18,880
many other really skillful

738
00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:21,039
individuals but the the fundamental

739
00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:22,480
charter

740
00:24:25,830 --> 00:24:24,400
of integral theory when you really kind

741
00:24:28,870 --> 00:24:25,840
of spend some time with it

742
00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:28,880
just makes so much sense it's just a way

743
00:24:33,669 --> 00:24:30,720
to look in a much more

744
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:33,679
kind of systemic holistic ecological

745
00:24:38,549 --> 00:24:35,600
comprehensive way

746
00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:38,559
about the real kind of mess of the human

747
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:39,200
condition

748
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:41,760
and that you can't really effectively

749
00:24:45,990 --> 00:24:44,320
put all your eggs in one basket

750
00:24:47,669 --> 00:24:46,000
and so we can talk very specifically

751
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:47,679
about what integral theory is but i

752
00:24:52,310 --> 00:24:50,159
think for our purposes here alex that

753
00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:52,320
the most important thing for for

754
00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:54,480
spiritual practitioners those interested

755
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:56,480
in this and trying to understand

756
00:25:00,070 --> 00:24:58,720
these kind of all these abuse things is

757
00:25:02,549 --> 00:25:00,080
that there are in fact these two

758
00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:02,559
different vectors of development

759
00:25:06,149 --> 00:25:04,720
this is the rocking growing up thing

760
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:06,159
which ken got from

761
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:08,400
john wellwood that comes from john

762
00:25:13,029 --> 00:25:10,880
wellwood and so the waking up is

763
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:13,039
as kind of a state it's a kind of

764
00:25:16,870 --> 00:25:14,240
development

765
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:16,880
or evolution of state level

766
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:17,760
consciousness

767
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:20,720
the and that's what the east so to speak

768
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:22,000
specializes in

769
00:25:25,590 --> 00:25:24,000
um working with different states of

770
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:25,600
consciousness and this ties into what we

771
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:27,200
were talking about earlier fundamentally

772
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,120
attaining lucidity

773
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:31,360
again lucidity is another code word for

774
00:25:34,470 --> 00:25:33,200
awareness right a lucid dream isn't a

775
00:25:37,029 --> 00:25:34,480
weird dream

776
00:25:37,909 --> 00:25:37,039
so state vectors of development waking

777
00:25:39,750 --> 00:25:37,919
up

778
00:25:41,029 --> 00:25:39,760
is basically fundamentally about

779
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:41,039
extending awareness

780
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:43,360
consciousness into all states somewhat

781
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:44,799
what we were talking about earlier so

782
00:25:47,590 --> 00:25:45,520
that

783
00:25:48,789 --> 00:25:47,600
eventually in fact meditators already

784
00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:48,799
know this studies have

785
00:25:52,630 --> 00:25:51,840
shown this meditators have more lucid

786
00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:52,640
dreams

787
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:54,240
because they're basically working with

788
00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:57,440
lucidity i.e awareness during the day

789
00:26:01,029 --> 00:25:59,360
in the mind of a meditation master as

790
00:26:02,549 --> 00:26:01,039
outrageous as it may seem

791
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:02,559
all their dreams are elusive there's no

792
00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:04,320
such thing as a non-lucid dream

793
00:26:07,990 --> 00:26:05,760
and by the way for people who may not

794
00:26:09,510 --> 00:26:08,000
know what a lucid dream is

795
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:09,520
that's a beautiful state of

796
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:11,120
consciousness when you're dreaming

797
00:26:14,870 --> 00:26:13,440
in the nighttime dream and something

798
00:26:17,669 --> 00:26:14,880
clues you into the fact that you're

799
00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:17,679
dreaming so you wake up you become lucid

800
00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:19,200
while you're still in the dream so

801
00:26:22,549 --> 00:26:20,640
you're actually conscious and

802
00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:22,559
unconscious at the same time

803
00:26:26,950 --> 00:26:25,679
so that's one state level of development

804
00:26:29,669 --> 00:26:26,960
the next one of course

805
00:26:31,430 --> 00:26:29,679
is attaining consciousness awareness in

806
00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:31,440
the deep dreamless state

807
00:26:34,070 --> 00:26:32,640
before we go down that path because we

808
00:26:35,029 --> 00:26:34,080
were talking about waking up and growing

809
00:26:35,909 --> 00:26:35,039
up and then you're gonna talk about the

810
00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:35,919
western

811
00:26:38,950 --> 00:26:38,640
psychological aspect of growing up stuff

812
00:26:40,149 --> 00:26:38,960
but

813
00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:40,159
i want to take it in a slightly

814
00:26:43,190 --> 00:26:41,760
different direction from one of the from

815
00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:43,200
a quote in the article

816
00:26:46,390 --> 00:26:45,360
one of the points you make is that if

817
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:46,400
you're leaning

818
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:50,320
on a lie it's only a matter of time

819
00:26:54,710 --> 00:26:53,360
before you're going to fall but now let

820
00:26:56,950 --> 00:26:54,720
me take that in a different direction

821
00:27:00,710 --> 00:26:56,960
from where you were taking it because

822
00:27:03,350 --> 00:27:00,720
later in the article you quote

823
00:27:04,549 --> 00:27:03,360
my friend former guest on this show sue

824
00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:04,559
blackmore

825
00:27:08,870 --> 00:27:07,600
who i think this is like spiritual

826
00:27:11,029 --> 00:27:08,880
non-dual people

827
00:27:12,390 --> 00:27:11,039
they don't see the freaking lies that

828
00:27:14,149 --> 00:27:12,400
they're leaning on

829
00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:14,159
and i think that's one thing i want to

830
00:27:19,110 --> 00:27:16,000
bounce off of you so

831
00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:19,120
lack more is leaning on this huge

832
00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:21,279
lie that you understand from your

833
00:27:25,190 --> 00:27:22,640
understanding of

834
00:27:25,990 --> 00:27:25,200
scientism and materialism and sue

835
00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:26,000
blackmore

836
00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:28,080
is leaning on the consciousness is an

837
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:29,360
illusion lie

838
00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:32,159
and she wrapped it in some kind of

839
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:32,720
buddhist

840
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:35,039
friendly terms that a lot of people fall

841
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:37,120
for but if you really look at what she

842
00:27:41,990 --> 00:27:39,440
says and if you interview her like i do

843
00:27:42,549 --> 00:27:42,000
and you press around the data she's in

844
00:27:45,190 --> 00:27:42,559
this

845
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:45,200
consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the

846
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:45,919
brain

847
00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:52,480
and that takes us in a really strange

848
00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:53,200
bizarre

849
00:27:58,470 --> 00:27:56,480
place that has to be called out for

850
00:28:01,190 --> 00:27:58,480
not nothing against sue blackmore but

851
00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:01,200
it's a lie that has perpetuated

852
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:04,480
the materialistic science that we see

853
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:06,320
yeah it's a belief system fundamentally

854
00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:07,520
i mean material

855
00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:09,120
you throw so many noodles against the

856
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:10,799
wall here first of all i wouldn't say

857
00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:13,200
um consciousness is so much an illusion

858
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:16,240
as consciousness is illusory that the

859
00:28:19,669 --> 00:28:16,720
objective

860
00:28:20,149 --> 00:28:19,679
so you said it i said sue blackmore said

861
00:28:25,990 --> 00:28:20,159
it

862
00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:26,000
in science that is the mainstream

863
00:28:30,870 --> 00:28:27,279
science position

864
00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:30,880
so neil degrasse tyson says it he says

865
00:28:34,470 --> 00:28:32,720
consciousness will come to understand

866
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:34,480
that it's nothing and i think there's a

867
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:35,760
subtle difference here that maybe you

868
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:37,279
want to talk about maybe you don't

869
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:38,880
when you say consciousness is

870
00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:40,640
illusionary

871
00:28:44,070 --> 00:28:43,200
people like sue blackmore turn that

872
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:44,080
around and say

873
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:46,240
consciousness is an illusion and they

874
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:47,200
equate the two

875
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:50,000
and they couldn't be more different yeah

876
00:28:53,350 --> 00:28:52,480
exactly it's it's a conflation due to a

877
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:53,360
policeman's

878
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:55,200
misunderstanding of the nature of the

879
00:28:58,149 --> 00:28:56,640
term itself and so

880
00:28:59,510 --> 00:28:58,159
you have to direct me a little bit on my

881
00:29:00,870 --> 00:28:59,520
friend in terms of where you want me to

882
00:29:02,310 --> 00:29:00,880
run with this because you're throwing a

883
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:02,320
lot of noodles on the wall they're

884
00:29:06,149 --> 00:29:03,840
really interesting

885
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:06,159
one is you want me to talk a little bit

886
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:07,840
about consciousness as illusion

887
00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:09,200
you want me to talk a little bit about

888
00:29:11,990 --> 00:29:11,279
my view of the cult of scientific

889
00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:12,000
materialism

890
00:29:15,669 --> 00:29:14,320
and how i think that's off so just so

891
00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:15,679
we're on the same wavelength here maybe

892
00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:16,880
you can guide me towards where you want

893
00:29:20,470 --> 00:29:18,000
me to run with this

894
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:20,480
well i think the cult of kind of

895
00:29:26,310 --> 00:29:22,640
scientific materialism

896
00:29:30,389 --> 00:29:26,320
and in particular how that has

897
00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:30,399
worked its way in in a strange way into

898
00:29:35,110 --> 00:29:33,440
modern american buddhism and people like

899
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:35,120
sue blackmore who do

900
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:38,480
wrap herself in a kind of buddhist cloak

901
00:29:42,149 --> 00:29:39,279
in this

902
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:42,159
atheistic buddhist and that's okay and

903
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:44,960
you can really pursue spirituality and

904
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:46,480
still believe consciousness is an

905
00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:49,039
illusion i think

906
00:29:52,549 --> 00:29:51,600
i'm just picking up on your term i think

907
00:29:55,590 --> 00:29:52,559
she is leaning

908
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:55,600
on what is fundamentally a lie

909
00:29:59,990 --> 00:29:58,240
and if i was to go back to your earlier

910
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:00,000
quote that i really like

911
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:03,120
is that it's only a matter of time

912
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:05,360
before you're going to fall and i just

913
00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:07,360
don't i don't know why

914
00:30:12,389 --> 00:30:10,640
we don't call that out why why there's

915
00:30:13,909 --> 00:30:12,399
resistance to just calling out sue

916
00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:13,919
blackmart you quoted her in the paper

917
00:30:17,669 --> 00:30:15,200
did you who she was

918
00:30:19,669 --> 00:30:17,679
i know who sue is so for sure yeah i

919
00:30:21,430 --> 00:30:19,679
mean she's an interesting character

920
00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:21,440
so again i'm trying to get even within

921
00:30:23,830 --> 00:30:22,640
that my friend i'm just trying to be a

922
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:23,840
little bit more clear about where you

923
00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:25,360
want me to go with this why'd you quote

924
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:27,279
sue blackmore as an example of that

925
00:30:30,149 --> 00:30:28,720
because she has some interesting things

926
00:30:31,269 --> 00:30:30,159
to say what does she have that's

927
00:30:33,750 --> 00:30:31,279
interesting to say

928
00:30:35,990 --> 00:30:33,760
well i mean she has she has a very uh

929
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:36,000
kind of vast array of contributions

930
00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:39,279
i i'm not she does terribly anything

931
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:41,919
interesting to say because she thinks

932
00:30:46,389 --> 00:30:43,760
consciousness is an illusion

933
00:30:48,870 --> 00:30:46,399
and an epiphenomenon of the brain she

934
00:30:51,510 --> 00:30:48,880
got that question wrong on the test

935
00:30:52,149 --> 00:30:51,520
so she wasn't allowed to go to part b c

936
00:30:55,909 --> 00:30:52,159
d

937
00:30:58,070 --> 00:30:55,919
about going after people

938
00:31:00,070 --> 00:30:58,080
and their views i'm more interested in

939
00:31:02,149 --> 00:31:00,080
in the kind of the integral approach to

940
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:02,159
reality and that but basically

941
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:04,320
my understanding alex is that sue is

942
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:06,000
basically talking from a particular

943
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:08,399
bandwidth of understanding

944
00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:10,320
based on all kinds of very interesting

945
00:31:13,269 --> 00:31:11,919
things that i think is more interesting

946
00:31:15,509 --> 00:31:13,279
to talk about

947
00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:15,519
and so within the context of the way i

948
00:31:18,389 --> 00:31:16,320
approach

949
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:18,399
certain things there are aspects of her

950
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:19,840
work that are

951
00:31:23,430 --> 00:31:21,760
true but partial and so what i think

952
00:31:25,509 --> 00:31:23,440
might be more fruitful

953
00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:25,519
is to talk about what might be more more

954
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:26,960
encompassing for instance

955
00:31:31,269 --> 00:31:29,600
your intimation about the limitations of

956
00:31:33,269 --> 00:31:31,279
scientific materialism i

957
00:31:36,549 --> 00:31:33,279
completely agree with that it's really

958
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:36,559
more a belief system and a religiosity

959
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:39,600
that is that is founded on hubris where

960
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:41,440
the the elegance of the scientific

961
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:42,320
method

962
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:44,960
i please understand i'm a huge fan of

963
00:31:49,269 --> 00:31:46,720
the scientific method

964
00:31:50,230 --> 00:31:49,279
i'm not a fan of reductionism

965
00:31:52,470 --> 00:31:50,240
materialism

966
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:52,480
i think that's science gone bad and

967
00:31:55,990 --> 00:31:54,000
especially as you put it that's when

968
00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:56,000
science flips into scientism so i'm not

969
00:32:00,190 --> 00:31:57,360
anti-science

970
00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:00,200
i'm anti-materialism and i'm

971
00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:02,640
anti-reductionism in that regard

972
00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:04,480
so what might might perhaps be more

973
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:05,840
fruitful

974
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:08,640
is to talk about how we can take the

975
00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:10,240
essence of the scientific method

976
00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:12,159
and this is where your conversation i'm

977
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:13,279
not sure if it went

978
00:32:16,870 --> 00:32:15,840
in this direction with evan thompson how

979
00:32:19,509 --> 00:32:16,880
that we can look

980
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:19,519
at the exploration of mind as a type of

981
00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:22,000
science only in that it's empirical

982
00:32:26,789 --> 00:32:25,200
i again i will go anywhere well

983
00:32:29,029 --> 00:32:26,799
you keep saying that but you kind of

984
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:29,039
won't go there it's it's there where do

985
00:32:33,269 --> 00:32:31,679
where do you want me to go okay so i

986
00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:33,279
wrote a book a few years ago and the

987
00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:35,120
title of the book was

988
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:37,760
why science is wrong about almost

989
00:32:41,190 --> 00:32:38,480
everything

990
00:32:43,669 --> 00:32:41,200
the premise of the book was that if you

991
00:32:45,590 --> 00:32:43,679
can't get consciousness right

992
00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:45,600
then you really can't get much else

993
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:47,760
right because if consciousness is

994
00:32:50,789 --> 00:32:49,840
fundamental then you can't measure

995
00:32:52,950 --> 00:32:50,799
things so

996
00:32:55,350 --> 00:32:52,960
i'm not caught sue blackmore seems like

997
00:32:57,750 --> 00:32:55,360
a nice person and i like her hair

998
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:57,760
and she's a great entertainer and we

999
00:33:01,830 --> 00:32:58,799
need

1000
00:33:05,190 --> 00:33:01,840
science spiritual entertainers i'm not

1001
00:33:06,070 --> 00:33:05,200
looking to mud at her but i think she's

1002
00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:06,080
part of

1003
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:08,000
this whether you want to call it

1004
00:33:13,110 --> 00:33:10,080
deliberate disinformation or

1005
00:33:16,149 --> 00:33:13,120
just kind of useful idiot kind of

1006
00:33:18,070 --> 00:33:16,159
thing to redirect people towards this

1007
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:18,080
idea that all you need to do is

1008
00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:19,600
like things and buy things and

1009
00:33:22,870 --> 00:33:22,159
accumulate things and she's part of that

1010
00:33:25,909 --> 00:33:22,880
because

1011
00:33:28,149 --> 00:33:25,919
everyone knows that consciousness isn't

1012
00:33:30,710 --> 00:33:28,159
an epiphenomenon of the brain everyone

1013
00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:30,720
knows we are not biological robots

1014
00:33:35,269 --> 00:33:33,200
in a meaningless universe so when people

1015
00:33:37,830 --> 00:33:35,279
like sue blackmore perpetuate it

1016
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:37,840
i think we have to politely draw the

1017
00:33:40,470 --> 00:33:38,399
line

1018
00:33:42,149 --> 00:33:40,480
so let me give you a number two because

1019
00:33:43,830 --> 00:33:42,159
there's three of these and they're all

1020
00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:43,840
gonna be just as much fun

1021
00:33:49,590 --> 00:33:46,880
as that first one trust me so here's

1022
00:33:50,470 --> 00:33:49,600
another lie that i think we lean on and

1023
00:33:53,750 --> 00:33:50,480
it comes from an

1024
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:53,760
interview i did with really a terrific

1025
00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:54,159
guy

1026
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:55,600
and again it's going to sound like i'm

1027
00:33:59,350 --> 00:33:57,519
bashing him and i'm not because he does

1028
00:34:01,909 --> 00:33:59,360
fantastic work he's at ohio state

1029
00:34:04,070 --> 00:34:01,919
university religious studies department

1030
00:34:06,549 --> 00:34:04,080
but the book that he wrote was on the

1031
00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:06,559
church of scientology

1032
00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:09,200
and i love the subtitle a history of a

1033
00:34:12,710 --> 00:34:10,720
new religion

1034
00:34:14,950 --> 00:34:12,720
and we all know that scientology is a

1035
00:34:18,069 --> 00:34:14,960
cult it's not a new religion

1036
00:34:20,230 --> 00:34:18,079
it's a cult so when we talked about the

1037
00:34:21,909 --> 00:34:20,240
origins of scientology which

1038
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:21,919
i don't know if you're into that kind of

1039
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:24,560
stuff but the origins are

1040
00:34:27,909 --> 00:34:26,720
this guy named l ron hubbard who we've

1041
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:27,919
heard about

1042
00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:31,119
is out in the desert with jack parsons

1043
00:34:36,470 --> 00:34:34,480
who is uh number one student of aleister

1044
00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:36,480
crowley the occultist

1045
00:34:40,869 --> 00:34:38,879
and they're performing this ritual by

1046
00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:40,879
which they're trying to bring forth the

1047
00:34:43,750 --> 00:34:42,159
antichrist they're trying to

1048
00:34:45,909 --> 00:34:43,760
actually bring forth the of

1049
00:34:47,829 --> 00:34:45,919
babylon so that they can

1050
00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:47,839
have sex with her and then she will give

1051
00:34:51,589 --> 00:34:49,520
birth to the antichrist

1052
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:51,599
and the antichrist will come take over

1053
00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:53,280
the world and they'll have some control

1054
00:34:58,470 --> 00:34:55,200
over that and wouldn't that be great

1055
00:35:02,470 --> 00:34:58,480
now the interesting thing is that that

1056
00:35:05,270 --> 00:35:02,480
is dr urban's research finding

1057
00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:05,280
his finding like sure we understand each

1058
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:06,000
other is

1059
00:35:10,790 --> 00:35:08,640
yep that really happened so when i push

1060
00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:10,800
him on that and i say don't we need to

1061
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:12,160
understand

1062
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:15,119
whether or not there is any reality to

1063
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:17,440
the extended reality they were trying to

1064
00:35:21,109 --> 00:35:18,720
tap into

1065
00:35:23,109 --> 00:35:21,119
and he said no it really doesn't it only

1066
00:35:24,630 --> 00:35:23,119
matters that they believe that there was

1067
00:35:26,550 --> 00:35:24,640
a reality to it

1068
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:26,560
and i would suggest that this is leaning

1069
00:35:30,950 --> 00:35:27,680
on a lie

1070
00:35:32,470 --> 00:35:30,960
because the lie is understanding however

1071
00:35:34,230 --> 00:35:32,480
we were to understand it

1072
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:34,240
through a buddhist perspective or a

1073
00:35:38,870 --> 00:35:35,520
christian perspective

1074
00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:38,880
at least get it on the table that by now

1075
00:35:42,630 --> 00:35:42,320
we understand despite what sue blackmore

1076
00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:42,640
says

1077
00:35:46,069 --> 00:35:44,160
we understand that extended

1078
00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:46,079
consciousness states

1079
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:48,880
are not an illusion they're real and

1080
00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:50,079
that's what matters

1081
00:35:53,589 --> 00:35:52,800
first and foremost and then secondarily

1082
00:35:55,430 --> 00:35:53,599
it matters

1083
00:35:57,270 --> 00:35:55,440
what you believe and how you manifest

1084
00:36:00,069 --> 00:35:57,280
that and how you interface with it

1085
00:36:00,550 --> 00:36:00,079
but we've completely dropped the ball in

1086
00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:00,560
the

1087
00:36:08,710 --> 00:36:06,560
people really like to go completely drop

1088
00:36:12,069 --> 00:36:08,720
the ball in terms of leaning on this

1089
00:36:15,109 --> 00:36:12,079
lie about extended consciousness realms

1090
00:36:17,109 --> 00:36:15,119
and suggesting and making it okay to say

1091
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:17,119
we don't know if they exist or not yes

1092
00:36:21,190 --> 00:36:18,960
we do know they exist

1093
00:36:23,349 --> 00:36:21,200
yes so there's a lot there so again i

1094
00:36:24,630 --> 00:36:23,359
i'm happy to take this anywhere you want

1095
00:36:26,069 --> 00:36:24,640
but maybe

1096
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:26,079
just help me out a little bit in terms

1097
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:28,160
of where you want me to run with it i'm

1098
00:36:32,550 --> 00:36:30,960
thrilled to talk about my understanding

1099
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:32,560
about consciousness and why it's

1100
00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:34,480
illusory and what's more foundational

1101
00:36:38,230 --> 00:36:36,240
than even consciousness

1102
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:38,240
because the wisdom tradition says i've

1103
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:40,480
come to practice and understand them

1104
00:36:43,990 --> 00:36:42,240
obviously speak a great deal about this

1105
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:44,000
and consciousness has a very limited

1106
00:36:47,589 --> 00:36:45,599
kind of bandwidth

1107
00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:47,599
in terms of the spectrum of mind there's

1108
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:49,839
something actually more foundational

1109
00:36:53,270 --> 00:36:51,920
so if you want me to run with that i'm

1110
00:36:54,630 --> 00:36:53,280
happy to do it so it's just

1111
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:54,640
maybe a little bit of guidance from you

1112
00:36:58,150 --> 00:36:56,640
in terms of the baton you're handing on

1113
00:36:59,829 --> 00:36:58,160
me i can't really give you any more

1114
00:37:00,870 --> 00:36:59,839
guidance than that i think yeah pretty

1115
00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:00,880
pretty

1116
00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:02,640
so let me do this let me play i i can

1117
00:37:05,109 --> 00:37:04,079
see that you you're you're kind of

1118
00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:05,119
struggling with this

1119
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:06,960
let me know i'm just you're just being a

1120
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:08,720
little bit opaque again i couldn't i

1121
00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:09,440
couldn't be more

1122
00:37:13,750 --> 00:37:12,640
you what's the point what's the point

1123
00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:13,760
you're trying to make to me that you

1124
00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:16,079
want me to respond to

1125
00:37:19,349 --> 00:37:18,320
sum it up i'll sum it up for you again

1126
00:37:23,109 --> 00:37:19,359
great

1127
00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:23,119
extended consciousness realms matter

1128
00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:26,720
and they're real and our inability to

1129
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:29,440
understand that from a serious academic

1130
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:31,040
intellectual

1131
00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:33,040
scientific forget it they're still stuck

1132
00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:34,960
on consciousness as an illusion

1133
00:37:38,870 --> 00:37:38,240
but the fact that we can't even begin to

1134
00:37:41,030 --> 00:37:38,880
approach

1135
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:41,040
extended consciousness realms and that

1136
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:42,400
dr urban

1137
00:37:46,870 --> 00:37:44,880
feels like it's okay to say it only

1138
00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:46,880
matters what they believe

1139
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:48,880
therefore sidestepping the whole

1140
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:50,000
extended consciousness

1141
00:37:54,150 --> 00:37:53,839
realm thing is is problematic i mean

1142
00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:54,160
it's

1143
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:58,240
well that part i

1144
00:38:02,150 --> 00:38:00,000
100 agree with you because then what

1145
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:02,160
happens is this kind of myopia this kind

1146
00:38:06,069 --> 00:38:03,680
of centrism

1147
00:38:07,510 --> 00:38:06,079
that only reality can be disclosed

1148
00:38:09,670 --> 00:38:07,520
through certain types of

1149
00:38:11,349 --> 00:38:09,680
consciousness experiences and and so i

1150
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:11,359
could not agree more with you on that

1151
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:12,320
track

1152
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:13,680
that what i think you're talking about

1153
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:15,359
extended consciousness and extended

1154
00:38:19,030 --> 00:38:16,640
realms

1155
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:19,040
in my vocabulary would in fact be this

1156
00:38:21,750 --> 00:38:20,640
type of archetype of awareness or

1157
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:21,760
lucidity

1158
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:24,160
where in fact we can indeed open the

1159
00:38:27,910 --> 00:38:25,119
aperture

1160
00:38:30,950 --> 00:38:27,920
of our mind and our heart and become

1161
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:30,960
available and aware of dimensions

1162
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,000
that are utterly as huxley and and

1163
00:38:38,310 --> 00:38:36,720
other scholars have talked about i'm

1164
00:38:41,190 --> 00:38:38,320
completely part of this

1165
00:38:42,069 --> 00:38:41,200
beautiful vast mystery of the cosmos and

1166
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:42,079
so

1167
00:38:45,109 --> 00:38:43,680
that part i completely agree with you

1168
00:38:48,630 --> 00:38:45,119
and then what happens with

1169
00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:48,640
belief systems with scientism with even

1170
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,079
the academic

1171
00:38:53,990 --> 00:38:52,400
need is we we just consider do you think

1172
00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:54,000
it was okay that these guys were trying

1173
00:38:57,030 --> 00:38:54,400
to

1174
00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:57,040
summon the antichrist and i'm not i'm

1175
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:58,560
not saying that's okay

1176
00:39:01,589 --> 00:39:00,800
not at all i'm simply saying is it is it

1177
00:39:03,910 --> 00:39:01,599
not okay

1178
00:39:05,589 --> 00:39:03,920
is it bad i mean do are we in a position

1179
00:39:06,150 --> 00:39:05,599
to make any kind of value judgment on

1180
00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:06,160
that i

1181
00:39:10,230 --> 00:39:08,800
i framed it in a way where you would say

1182
00:39:12,230 --> 00:39:10,240
no i'm not saying it's good

1183
00:39:13,990 --> 00:39:12,240
maybe it is good maybe you know doeth

1184
00:39:15,589 --> 00:39:14,000
thou wilt i mean we're all trying to

1185
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:15,599
exercise power and bring

1186
00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:16,800
i don't think i mean you're talking

1187
00:39:20,710 --> 00:39:18,640
about type of radical relativism

1188
00:39:22,390 --> 00:39:20,720
kind of the extreme of post-modernism i

1189
00:39:23,829 --> 00:39:22,400
i don't think that's particularly

1190
00:39:25,829 --> 00:39:23,839
helpful because

1191
00:39:27,589 --> 00:39:25,839
fundamentally reality is not an infinite

1192
00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:27,599
sliding scale if you think it is you're

1193
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:29,200
called a psychotic

1194
00:39:32,870 --> 00:39:31,359
so i i think what i'm trying to derive

1195
00:39:36,310 --> 00:39:32,880
from what you're throwing

1196
00:39:38,790 --> 00:39:36,320
my direction to respond to is that no

1197
00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:38,800
not everything is just okay there have

1198
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:41,680
to be kind of metrics for reality

1199
00:39:45,829 --> 00:39:43,680
and what those metrics actually are

1200
00:39:47,829 --> 00:39:45,839
that's a monumental question who's who's

1201
00:39:49,030 --> 00:39:47,839
to decide upon that i think that's one

1202
00:39:50,790 --> 00:39:49,040
of the great

1203
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:50,800
kind of issues contributions and

1204
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:52,640
contestations from all these different

1205
00:39:56,790 --> 00:39:54,960
type of traditions that go after it

1206
00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:56,800
so i'm i'm definitely not saying that's

1207
00:40:01,270 --> 00:39:59,359
or okay what i am saying is it's kind of

1208
00:40:03,589 --> 00:40:01,280
the near enemy of this integral approach

1209
00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:03,599
integral theory integral thinking

1210
00:40:07,510 --> 00:40:06,079
is about again opening realizing

1211
00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:07,520
underrating honorating

1212
00:40:10,790 --> 00:40:09,440
honoring and incorporating truth from

1213
00:40:12,309 --> 00:40:10,800
all these different traditions

1214
00:40:13,829 --> 00:40:12,319
but at a certain point here's a very

1215
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:13,839
interesting maxim

1216
00:40:17,190 --> 00:40:15,760
it's really really important to have an

1217
00:40:19,510 --> 00:40:17,200
open mind

1218
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:19,520
but if your mind is too open your brains

1219
00:40:22,790 --> 00:40:20,960
will fall out

1220
00:40:24,790 --> 00:40:22,800
and so somewhere in there has to be a

1221
00:40:26,230 --> 00:40:24,800
middle way that we want to maintain

1222
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:26,240
honor and incorporate different

1223
00:40:30,870 --> 00:40:29,200
dimensions realize which is always very

1224
00:40:32,309 --> 00:40:30,880
difficult because by definition these

1225
00:40:34,230 --> 00:40:32,319
are blind spots

1226
00:40:35,990 --> 00:40:34,240
the limitations of our own ways of

1227
00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:36,000
looking at the world increasing our

1228
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:38,720
tolerance receptivity and accommodation

1229
00:40:42,309 --> 00:40:40,960
so that then from that was born humility

1230
00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:42,319
for ourselves

1231
00:40:46,309 --> 00:40:44,480
in a sense of tolerance and receptivity

1232
00:40:48,069 --> 00:40:46,319
and acknowledgement of others

1233
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:48,079
are you okay with calling scientology

1234
00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:49,760
occult yeah

1235
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:51,440
it's absolutely a cult as far as i can

1236
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:54,000
tell i mean i'm not a deep scholar of

1237
00:40:57,190 --> 00:40:55,440
that tradition because it doesn't take

1238
00:40:58,390 --> 00:40:57,200
very long to realize they're like pretty

1239
00:40:59,990 --> 00:40:58,400
far off base

1240
00:41:01,510 --> 00:41:00,000
but yeah i would say it's absolutely a

1241
00:41:03,910 --> 00:41:01,520
cult of which there are so isn't it

1242
00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:03,920
isn't it a problem that we can't call it

1243
00:41:05,910 --> 00:41:04,480
a cult

1244
00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:05,920
in religious studies you won't find a

1245
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:08,319
religious studies professor

1246
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:10,160
or look at where integral studies are

1247
00:41:13,109 --> 00:41:11,520
going in academia

1248
00:41:15,670 --> 00:41:13,119
and find one of those people to stand up

1249
00:41:18,309 --> 00:41:15,680
and say what we all know it's a cult

1250
00:41:19,589 --> 00:41:18,319
yeah you can't do that well again that's

1251
00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:19,599
kind of a carp large snap

1252
00:41:23,589 --> 00:41:21,599
statement i think some may but honestly

1253
00:41:25,829 --> 00:41:23,599
i think again and i'm not i'm not

1254
00:41:27,270 --> 00:41:25,839
that facile in kind of cross-cultural

1255
00:41:28,550 --> 00:41:27,280
studies when it comes to things like

1256
00:41:30,630 --> 00:41:28,560
scientology

1257
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,640
but i think most people honestly and you

1258
00:41:35,109 --> 00:41:32,720
probably know more about this than me

1259
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:35,119
just probably don't spend a lot of time

1260
00:41:39,030 --> 00:41:36,960
on something that's just so overtly

1261
00:41:40,550 --> 00:41:39,040
um overtly kind of politician off the

1262
00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:40,560
mark at least that's what i do

1263
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:42,240
doesn't take long to scratch the surface

1264
00:41:45,109 --> 00:41:44,160
and realize there's just some confusion

1265
00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:45,119
here

1266
00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:47,119
but again i'm quoting i'm quoting an

1267
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:49,040
ohio state university

1268
00:41:53,349 --> 00:41:51,040
professor respected professor and it's

1269
00:41:56,470 --> 00:41:53,359
not like his position is

1270
00:41:57,910 --> 00:41:56,480
unique let me play uh you're running out

1271
00:41:59,190 --> 00:41:57,920
of patience i can tell

1272
00:42:00,309 --> 00:41:59,200
i'm not running out of patience i'm just

1273
00:42:01,430 --> 00:42:00,319
trying to figure out where you where

1274
00:42:02,950 --> 00:42:01,440
you're running with all this i'm

1275
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:02,960
definitely not running out of patience

1276
00:42:06,950 --> 00:42:04,880
let me play some clips for you from my

1277
00:42:09,270 --> 00:42:06,960
interview with charlie morley and then

1278
00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:09,280
with tom zinzer and i might pause during

1279
00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:10,240
these clips okay

1280
00:42:13,990 --> 00:42:12,240
straight off the bat i don't believe in

1281
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:14,000
any objectively existing

1282
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:16,079
external evil i don't even believe in

1283
00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:17,520
evil as a concept

1284
00:42:21,190 --> 00:42:20,880
i believe in traumatized people acting

1285
00:42:23,510 --> 00:42:21,200
out

1286
00:42:25,270 --> 00:42:23,520
unintegrated trauma which manifests as

1287
00:42:26,309 --> 00:42:25,280
seeming human evil

1288
00:42:28,550 --> 00:42:26,319
so from a buddhist point of view the

1289
00:42:28,950 --> 00:42:28,560
hell realms are as real as this waking

1290
00:42:33,349 --> 00:42:28,960
life

1291
00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:33,359
and then i get way out of my depth

1292
00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:35,040
if the client believes that they have a

1293
00:42:38,790 --> 00:42:37,119
spirit within them and if you do like an

1294
00:42:40,390 --> 00:42:38,800
exorcism and you really go for it and

1295
00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:40,400
you enter into that what i would say

1296
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:41,200
entering into

1297
00:42:44,630 --> 00:42:42,960
into the psychosis of the client then

1298
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:44,640
the exorcism could work right

1299
00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:46,240
it doesn't necessarily mean though that

1300
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:48,079
there was an externally existing

1301
00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:49,520
objective entity there in the first

1302
00:42:54,550 --> 00:42:51,200
place though okay so

1303
00:42:56,550 --> 00:42:54,560
that was charlie morley and he is a

1304
00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:56,560
super excellent guy i love talking to

1305
00:43:00,710 --> 00:42:59,440
him great guy he's a lucid dream teacher

1306
00:43:02,630 --> 00:43:00,720
in the uk

1307
00:43:05,270 --> 00:43:02,640
and we're having this conversation and

1308
00:43:06,870 --> 00:43:05,280
he's going down this kind of line which

1309
00:43:09,430 --> 00:43:06,880
i don't totally agree with but then i

1310
00:43:12,390 --> 00:43:09,440
played for him a clip that i'm gonna

1311
00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:12,400
now play for you andrew and it's from

1312
00:43:18,550 --> 00:43:14,880
clinical psychologist tom zinzer

1313
00:43:21,990 --> 00:43:18,560
tom zinzer has spent oh 15 years

1314
00:43:24,589 --> 00:43:22,000
working with mainly traumatized

1315
00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:24,599
people who have experienced

1316
00:43:27,349 --> 00:43:25,760
disassociation

1317
00:43:29,109 --> 00:43:27,359
in one form or another i think you'll

1318
00:43:32,230 --> 00:43:29,119
catch on to what his

1319
00:43:35,589 --> 00:43:32,240
uh what his practice has been like okay

1320
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:35,599
my work is basically identifying those

1321
00:43:39,430 --> 00:43:38,880
things within person that blocks the

1322
00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:39,440
light

1323
00:43:44,069 --> 00:43:42,640
from them so the protocol developed for

1324
00:43:47,109 --> 00:43:44,079
the ego stages

1325
00:43:49,510 --> 00:43:47,119
make the contact communicate with them

1326
00:43:51,190 --> 00:43:49,520
make it safe for them to receive this

1327
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:51,200
light love energy

1328
00:43:56,550 --> 00:43:54,480
once they receive it 99 say whippy

1329
00:43:57,910 --> 00:43:56,560
uh i love this i don't want to be

1330
00:44:00,630 --> 00:43:57,920
without it

1331
00:44:02,470 --> 00:44:00,640
and then they will move through the

1332
00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:02,480
sharing and release of what happened to

1333
00:44:05,910 --> 00:44:03,040
them

1334
00:44:07,990 --> 00:44:05,920
for spirit attachment outside entities

1335
00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:08,000
it's a different protocol

1336
00:44:11,589 --> 00:44:10,400
they don't belong with the person they

1337
00:44:14,790 --> 00:44:11,599
need to leave

1338
00:44:16,390 --> 00:44:14,800
and in the worst cases protocols

1339
00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:16,400
designed to get to a point where they

1340
00:44:19,349 --> 00:44:17,040
could be

1341
00:44:21,670 --> 00:44:19,359
removed it's going to sound like i've

1342
00:44:23,510 --> 00:44:21,680
got a well not contradicting myself but

1343
00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:23,520
also the buddhist view is that this is

1344
00:44:27,430 --> 00:44:25,440
not the only realm of existence

1345
00:44:29,270 --> 00:44:27,440
there are like six realms of existence

1346
00:44:31,190 --> 00:44:29,280
which can actually be all contacted

1347
00:44:33,109 --> 00:44:31,200
through the human realm if how to do it

1348
00:44:34,550 --> 00:44:33,119
and these include like hell beings

1349
00:44:37,510 --> 00:44:34,560
heaven realms

1350
00:44:38,630 --> 00:44:37,520
um hungry ghost realms i wanted to say

1351
00:44:39,910 --> 00:44:38,640
about entities

1352
00:44:41,589 --> 00:44:39,920
because i realized i gave you the

1353
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:41,599
jungian view on entities i gave you the

1354
00:44:43,990 --> 00:44:42,800
buddhist view on entities

1355
00:44:46,390 --> 00:44:44,000
i didn't actually give you my personal

1356
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:46,400
view on entities which is like yeah man

1357
00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:48,480
anyone who's had like a dmt experience

1358
00:44:51,589 --> 00:44:49,280
or like

1359
00:44:53,670 --> 00:44:51,599
moving into kind of psilocybin therapy

1360
00:44:56,309 --> 00:44:53,680
or ayahuasca or something

1361
00:44:57,510 --> 00:44:56,319
these are these are not internally

1362
00:44:59,190 --> 00:44:57,520
generated

1363
00:45:00,790 --> 00:44:59,200
experiences like when people are all

1364
00:45:02,230 --> 00:45:00,800
having the same experience of mother

1365
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:02,240
ayahuasca coming over them and she

1366
00:45:05,670 --> 00:45:03,760
appears in the same way

1367
00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:05,680
and often is offering the same guidance

1368
00:45:11,190 --> 00:45:09,200
you're thinking this is existing dude

1369
00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:11,200
so i kind of laid a lot on you there but

1370
00:45:14,309 --> 00:45:13,040
for people who are listening just so you

1371
00:45:16,950 --> 00:45:14,319
understand

1372
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:16,960
charlie is going down this line he's an

1373
00:45:20,069 --> 00:45:18,960
awesome guy but he has to kind of hold

1374
00:45:22,710 --> 00:45:20,079
to that

1375
00:45:24,309 --> 00:45:22,720
sue blackmore materialism it's all in

1376
00:45:25,750 --> 00:45:24,319
the brain kind of stuff and that's what

1377
00:45:27,270 --> 00:45:25,760
he's saying at the beginning when you

1378
00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:27,280
can manifest it is just

1379
00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:29,440
your own psychosis and all the rest that

1380
00:45:32,790 --> 00:45:31,119
then we talk about tom zinzer and tom

1381
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:32,800
zinzer says i've worked with hundreds of

1382
00:45:36,150 --> 00:45:33,680
people and i

1383
00:45:37,109 --> 00:45:36,160
spirit possession i don't know how else

1384
00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:37,119
to talk about it

1385
00:45:40,710 --> 00:45:39,440
with just associated ego states within

1386
00:45:43,190 --> 00:45:40,720
these individuals

1387
00:45:44,069 --> 00:45:43,200
seem to be a reality and from a jungian

1388
00:45:45,910 --> 00:45:44,079
perspective

1389
00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:45,920
you treat it like that and it works like

1390
00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:48,560
that and it's it follows his protocol

1391
00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:50,319
and then you go back to charlie and he

1392
00:45:53,910 --> 00:45:52,720
goes well yeah i guess there is that

1393
00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:53,920
part of it too

1394
00:45:57,510 --> 00:45:55,920
that the buddhists do recognize that

1395
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:57,520
there are entities that do

1396
00:46:02,230 --> 00:46:00,000
inhabit consciousness and maybe it can

1397
00:46:05,589 --> 00:46:02,240
fold into tom's idea of

1398
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:05,599
these separated like sub personalities

1399
00:46:10,230 --> 00:46:07,359
that separate so

1400
00:46:12,630 --> 00:46:10,240
a lot to cover here and i just don't

1401
00:46:14,950 --> 00:46:12,640
want to gloss it all over and integrate

1402
00:46:16,870 --> 00:46:14,960
it and talk about how dream yoga

1403
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:16,880
answers this question i don't think it

1404
00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:19,839
does i don't know what's the question

1405
00:46:24,470 --> 00:46:22,800
oh man come on so really you're you're

1406
00:46:25,829 --> 00:46:24,480
what do you think you you you heard all

1407
00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:25,839
you heard both these guys what do you

1408
00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:27,520
think well again i'm just

1409
00:46:31,030 --> 00:46:28,720
i'm trying to just be a little bit

1410
00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:31,040
articulate what do i think about what

1411
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:32,800
because they both covered some amazing

1412
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:35,440
topics so what did you think was amazing

1413
00:46:39,190 --> 00:46:37,440
well i mean again what i find

1414
00:46:41,030 --> 00:46:39,200
provocative and i'm not here to judge

1415
00:46:42,230 --> 00:46:41,040
either of them that's just not the way i

1416
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:42,240
roll

1417
00:46:45,750 --> 00:46:43,920
what i find compelling i'm always

1418
00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:45,760
judging everyone i hate when people say

1419
00:46:49,109 --> 00:46:47,119
that of course you're they're judging

1420
00:46:51,270 --> 00:46:49,119
positively or judging negatively but

1421
00:46:53,750 --> 00:46:51,280
judge feel free this is a

1422
00:46:56,069 --> 00:46:53,760
judge friendly zone what i find

1423
00:46:56,550 --> 00:46:56,079
compelling about what charlie says is

1424
00:47:01,270 --> 00:46:56,560
that

1425
00:47:03,829 --> 00:47:01,280
again we live in a universe in a world

1426
00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:03,839
where there is plenty of room for other

1427
00:47:08,550 --> 00:47:06,000
forms of reality

1428
00:47:10,470 --> 00:47:08,560
so what i find compelling with his

1429
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:10,480
statement in particular

1430
00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:12,480
is i really like what he said that these

1431
00:47:17,990 --> 00:47:14,560
dimensions are just as real or

1432
00:47:19,190 --> 00:47:18,000
unreal as this that to me is the crux of

1433
00:47:22,829 --> 00:47:19,200
it alex where

1434
00:47:24,309 --> 00:47:22,839
basically the the charter to base uh to

1435
00:47:26,950 --> 00:47:24,319
de-reify

1436
00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:26,960
to look at our reality in a more humble

1437
00:47:30,950 --> 00:47:28,880
contextual way

1438
00:47:32,870 --> 00:47:30,960
to realize that fundamentally we don't

1439
00:47:35,030 --> 00:47:32,880
know everything we don't

1440
00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:35,040
have kind of ontological rights of

1441
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:37,760
supremacy that this is the only reality

1442
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:40,319
i think that's that's what i derive from

1443
00:47:44,870 --> 00:47:42,000
what charlie was saying

1444
00:47:46,950 --> 00:47:44,880
is that once we really open again that's

1445
00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:46,960
the charter as i've come to understand

1446
00:47:50,630 --> 00:47:48,800
it and experience it is we open our

1447
00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:50,640
minds we open our hearts

1448
00:47:54,309 --> 00:47:52,559
we're opening ourselves to two of

1449
00:47:55,829 --> 00:47:54,319
different dimensions of reality that to

1450
00:47:58,069 --> 00:47:55,839
me is the important point that there

1451
00:47:59,190 --> 00:47:58,079
isn't just one particular reified thing

1452
00:48:02,390 --> 00:47:59,200
as the scientists

1453
00:48:04,470 --> 00:48:02,400
as the materialists tend to put forth my

1454
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:04,480
view of things alex is that reality is

1455
00:48:06,870 --> 00:48:05,440
plastic

1456
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:06,880
i think that's what i'm deriving from

1457
00:48:10,470 --> 00:48:08,160
what i'm hearing here this kind of

1458
00:48:13,990 --> 00:48:10,480
ontological plasticity

1459
00:48:16,470 --> 00:48:14,000
that really the world responds in kind

1460
00:48:17,589 --> 00:48:16,480
to the to the kind of apparatus of

1461
00:48:19,510 --> 00:48:17,599
perception

1462
00:48:21,510 --> 00:48:19,520
belief systems and the like that we

1463
00:48:22,870 --> 00:48:21,520
bring to it and so this may be tying

1464
00:48:24,630 --> 00:48:22,880
into some of the other things that you

1465
00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:24,640
were talking about that

1466
00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:26,480
it's like how did what's the maxim go we

1467
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:29,040
don't see things the way they are

1468
00:48:34,390 --> 00:48:32,319
we see things the way we are and so

1469
00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:34,400
that is a really that's a really quite

1470
00:48:39,109 --> 00:48:36,480
important statement because again

1471
00:48:39,510 --> 00:48:39,119
it brings about a sense of humility that

1472
00:48:45,109 --> 00:48:39,520
my

1473
00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:45,119
which is why i'm always reluctant to

1474
00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:46,800
criticize the views of others unless

1475
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:47,200
they're

1476
00:48:50,870 --> 00:48:49,680
ragingly off-page there also is this

1477
00:48:53,510 --> 00:48:50,880
interface

1478
00:48:53,990 --> 00:48:53,520
with this reality so what i appreciate

1479
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:54,000
about

1480
00:48:57,349 --> 00:48:56,319
tom zinser who again is a clinical

1481
00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:57,359
psychologist right

1482
00:49:01,030 --> 00:48:59,359
he's a people helper in grand rapids

1483
00:49:02,870 --> 00:49:01,040
michigan he's retired now

1484
00:49:04,790 --> 00:49:02,880
but for years and years and the

1485
00:49:08,309 --> 00:49:04,800
interesting thing about tom's story is

1486
00:49:10,309 --> 00:49:08,319
he's got a phd texas a m trained in a

1487
00:49:12,230 --> 00:49:10,319
mental hospital he's all the credentials

1488
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:12,240
right and people are coming to him

1489
00:49:15,349 --> 00:49:13,680
and he's frustrated because he's not

1490
00:49:17,670 --> 00:49:15,359
able to help people people

1491
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:17,680
have trauma and he can sometimes help

1492
00:49:21,109 --> 00:49:19,440
them but not always

1493
00:49:23,589 --> 00:49:21,119
when he when he starts having an

1494
00:49:27,270 --> 00:49:23,599
encounter with a spirit guide

1495
00:49:30,870 --> 00:49:27,280
from jared jared starts guiding him

1496
00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:30,880
in terms of how to help these people

1497
00:49:35,190 --> 00:49:33,520
with spirit entities that are

1498
00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:35,200
interfering with their life

1499
00:49:40,150 --> 00:49:38,400
now we can take your approach and say

1500
00:49:41,589 --> 00:49:40,160
well gee i don't know if there's any

1501
00:49:43,670 --> 00:49:41,599
reality to that it's what

1502
00:49:45,750 --> 00:49:43,680
we make of it or we can go back to you

1503
00:49:47,109 --> 00:49:45,760
urban it doesn't matter if that's true

1504
00:49:49,510 --> 00:49:47,119
it matters what they believe

1505
00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:49,520
but at the same time i listen to you and

1506
00:49:52,790 --> 00:49:50,880
you are a practical

1507
00:49:54,150 --> 00:49:52,800
guy in terms of the interface with

1508
00:49:55,990 --> 00:49:54,160
reality so you say

1509
00:49:57,270 --> 00:49:56,000
sleep on your right side keep one

1510
00:50:00,790 --> 00:49:57,280
nostril closed

1511
00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:00,800
do this meditation you're more likely to

1512
00:50:07,750 --> 00:50:04,559
enter a lucid dream state so you're not

1513
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:07,760
that's very practical this world kind of

1514
00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:08,480
stuff

1515
00:50:12,069 --> 00:50:11,040
so in that same way tom zinzer is saying

1516
00:50:15,109 --> 00:50:12,079
from a practical

1517
00:50:17,750 --> 00:50:15,119
real world standpoint you could be

1518
00:50:18,470 --> 00:50:17,760
encountering these kind of spirit

1519
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:18,480
entities

1520
00:50:21,829 --> 00:50:20,240
in your day-to-day life and they could

1521
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:21,839
be interfering with your life

1522
00:50:24,870 --> 00:50:23,440
i don't want to gloss that over i want i

1523
00:50:26,069 --> 00:50:24,880
don't want to accept that it's true i'm

1524
00:50:28,069 --> 00:50:26,079
not saying it is true

1525
00:50:30,790 --> 00:50:28,079
but we don't even we don't have the

1526
00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:30,800
means to even deal with it it seems like

1527
00:50:34,790 --> 00:50:32,400
deal with it in which way just deal with

1528
00:50:37,430 --> 00:50:34,800
it philosophically or or

1529
00:50:39,030 --> 00:50:37,440
ontologically practically how about

1530
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:39,040
practically should we follow

1531
00:50:42,069 --> 00:50:41,200
tom's protocol should we follow your

1532
00:50:43,750 --> 00:50:42,079
protocol

1533
00:50:45,670 --> 00:50:43,760
should we should we sleep on our right

1534
00:50:46,790 --> 00:50:45,680
side with one nostril closed

1535
00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:46,800
well i mean you're kind of all over the

1536
00:50:49,670 --> 00:50:48,480
map here my friend if i might say i i

1537
00:50:53,670 --> 00:50:49,680
think we follow what

1538
00:50:56,790 --> 00:50:53,680
practicality does it not

1539
00:50:58,470 --> 00:50:56,800
alex doesn't the practicality derive

1540
00:50:59,990 --> 00:50:58,480
from our relationship to mind and

1541
00:51:01,910 --> 00:51:00,000
reality i guess that's what i'm coming

1542
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:01,920
down on so if it's if it's perhaps

1543
00:51:06,470 --> 00:51:03,200
helpful

1544
00:51:08,309 --> 00:51:06,480
for someone to relate to a deity or to

1545
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:08,319
an entity and the like

1546
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:10,960
why not use that as a segue as a

1547
00:51:13,829 --> 00:51:12,079
skillful means

1548
00:51:15,829 --> 00:51:13,839
to develop some communication with that

1549
00:51:17,829 --> 00:51:15,839
individual and then work with them at

1550
00:51:19,910 --> 00:51:17,839
that provisional level it may not be the

1551
00:51:20,790 --> 00:51:19,920
ultimate reality but again who are we to

1552
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:20,800
say

1553
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:27,359
value judgments belief judgments about

1554
00:51:31,030 --> 00:51:28,720
what reality is

1555
00:51:31,829 --> 00:51:31,040
of course we do that all the time this

1556
00:51:33,829 --> 00:51:31,839
is uh

1557
00:51:35,910 --> 00:51:33,839
this is the good part of science this is

1558
00:51:37,109 --> 00:51:35,920
the scientific method part that you said

1559
00:51:39,109 --> 00:51:37,119
you appreciate

1560
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:39,119
we do things we test things we see if

1561
00:51:43,750 --> 00:51:40,880
they work if they're repeatable

1562
00:51:46,150 --> 00:51:43,760
if they're falsifiable we do have a

1563
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:46,160
certain attachment to reality yes

1564
00:51:50,069 --> 00:51:48,960
for sure i mean that's because yeah if

1565
00:51:52,069 --> 00:51:50,079
we didn't have that then

1566
00:51:53,829 --> 00:51:52,079
yeah the whole egoic structure would

1567
00:51:54,790 --> 00:51:53,839
fall apart and we'd be in deep doo-doo

1568
00:51:58,230 --> 00:51:54,800
so

1569
00:52:00,069 --> 00:51:58,240
the bandwidths of

1570
00:52:01,270 --> 00:52:00,079
kind of harmony and resonance between

1571
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:01,280
what i'm trying to

1572
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:03,040
extract from what you're saying and what

1573
00:52:06,549 --> 00:52:04,640
perhaps i can say that could be of some

1574
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:06,559
benefit or contribution

1575
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:08,160
and so again i'm just trying to

1576
00:52:11,910 --> 00:52:10,559
articulate to my ability maybe it's my

1577
00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:11,920
lack of understanding of what you're

1578
00:52:15,750 --> 00:52:13,200
saying

1579
00:52:17,030 --> 00:52:15,760
what do you when you put those things

1580
00:52:18,870 --> 00:52:17,040
forward to me

1581
00:52:20,150 --> 00:52:18,880
where does that land with you where does

1582
00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:20,160
it challenge you

1583
00:52:24,390 --> 00:52:22,000
i mean what do you come down on that

1584
00:52:27,510 --> 00:52:24,400
doesn't settle or does settle with you

1585
00:52:29,430 --> 00:52:27,520
well to answer that question is try and

1586
00:52:32,150 --> 00:52:29,440
be as direct as i can

1587
00:52:33,510 --> 00:52:32,160
i look at the forces in culture that

1588
00:52:35,190 --> 00:52:33,520
have kind of boxed us

1589
00:52:36,549 --> 00:52:35,200
into where we would understand the

1590
00:52:38,549 --> 00:52:36,559
answer to that question

1591
00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:38,559
and on one hand i see scientific

1592
00:52:42,870 --> 00:52:39,680
materialism

1593
00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:42,880
and i see our friend with the

1594
00:52:46,230 --> 00:52:45,040
punching bag for this show has been sue

1595
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:46,240
blackmore she's

1596
00:52:49,270 --> 00:52:47,520
not a bad person she's just

1597
00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:49,280
representative of that so

1598
00:52:52,630 --> 00:52:51,280
my kids i told you my daughters see you

1599
00:52:55,510 --> 00:52:52,640
you're there in boulder

1600
00:52:56,309 --> 00:52:55,520
what she encounters in the humanities

1601
00:52:59,510 --> 00:52:56,319
department

1602
00:53:01,990 --> 00:52:59,520
and in the school of science in general

1603
00:53:03,510 --> 00:53:02,000
is you are a biological robot in a

1604
00:53:07,349 --> 00:53:03,520
meaningless universe

1605
00:53:09,190 --> 00:53:07,359
that is what is drilled into her and so

1606
00:53:10,710 --> 00:53:09,200
when we look at sue blackmore you know

1607
00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:10,720
you think she's going to come with some

1608
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:11,359
kind of

1609
00:53:14,950 --> 00:53:13,200
wisdom tradition of great buddhist

1610
00:53:16,470 --> 00:53:14,960
thought but no she's gonna

1611
00:53:18,710 --> 00:53:16,480
trick you into that and then she's gonna

1612
00:53:20,309 --> 00:53:18,720
come back and tell you in fact

1613
00:53:21,910 --> 00:53:20,319
you are a biological robot and

1614
00:53:24,309 --> 00:53:21,920
meaningless universe so don't

1615
00:53:26,309 --> 00:53:24,319
think about it too much and then if we

1616
00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:26,319
look at the other side where we might go

1617
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:29,520
and mainstream perspective for an

1618
00:53:33,910 --> 00:53:31,440
understanding of that deeper part

1619
00:53:35,510 --> 00:53:33,920
we'd look at religion and then we're

1620
00:53:37,589 --> 00:53:35,520
we're leaning on another lie well

1621
00:53:39,990 --> 00:53:37,599
really just good guys over there those

1622
00:53:42,069 --> 00:53:40,000
catholics just a few bad apples

1623
00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:42,079
instead of what we really all know that

1624
00:53:47,349 --> 00:53:44,160
it's institutionalized

1625
00:53:50,549 --> 00:53:47,359
sexual abuse rape of

1626
00:53:50,870 --> 00:53:50,559
kids and it comes out again i think we

1627
00:53:52,470 --> 00:53:50,880
have to

1628
00:53:55,030 --> 00:53:52,480
some of them are that way i wouldn't

1629
00:53:58,069 --> 00:53:55,040
just say that institutionalized

1630
00:54:00,069 --> 00:53:58,079
i would say at this point any thinking

1631
00:54:01,270 --> 00:54:00,079
person would have to acknowledge that at

1632
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:01,280
the very least

1633
00:54:04,470 --> 00:54:04,000
the burden of proof is on the catholic

1634
00:54:07,430 --> 00:54:04,480
church

1635
00:54:08,069 --> 00:54:07,440
at the highest level to prove beyond any

1636
00:54:10,309 --> 00:54:08,079
doubt

1637
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:10,319
that it is not an institutionally

1638
00:54:15,829 --> 00:54:13,200
supported and understood

1639
00:54:16,710 --> 00:54:15,839
practice that's been enshrined for many

1640
00:54:18,069 --> 00:54:16,720
years that's just

1641
00:54:20,150 --> 00:54:18,079
that's just the evidence that's where

1642
00:54:22,390 --> 00:54:20,160
the evidence leaves we can't keep saying

1643
00:54:24,069 --> 00:54:22,400
oh it's just a few bad apples but again

1644
00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:24,079
if those are the two forces you have if

1645
00:54:27,670 --> 00:54:25,760
you have science on one hand saying your

1646
00:54:29,670 --> 00:54:27,680
biological robot means universe

1647
00:54:31,349 --> 00:54:29,680
and on the other hand you have this

1648
00:54:34,710 --> 00:54:31,359
really corrupted

1649
00:54:37,190 --> 00:54:34,720
religious kind of understanding i think

1650
00:54:38,069 --> 00:54:37,200
people are looking for something like

1651
00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:38,079
which way to go

1652
00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:40,960
here thing so that's that's my read of

1653
00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:42,000
it

1654
00:54:48,870 --> 00:54:45,839
true alex that

1655
00:54:52,069 --> 00:54:48,880
the human condition is really

1656
00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:52,079
just very sticky very messy and so

1657
00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:54,640
i think what we are trying to do people

1658
00:54:58,470 --> 00:54:56,160
like you and i

1659
00:54:59,430 --> 00:54:58,480
is make sense of a very complex

1660
00:55:01,349 --> 00:54:59,440
situation

1661
00:55:04,309 --> 00:55:01,359
and so i do it with a particular

1662
00:55:06,710 --> 00:55:04,319
apparatus of biases and

1663
00:55:07,829 --> 00:55:06,720
value judgments and skill sets you do it

1664
00:55:09,510 --> 00:55:07,839
with your own

1665
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:09,520
but i keep trying to come back to

1666
00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:11,920
something very positive about

1667
00:55:16,630 --> 00:55:14,640
just looking at all these different

1668
00:55:18,230 --> 00:55:16,640
manifestations of the human condition

1669
00:55:19,670 --> 00:55:18,240
whether it's it's a sue blackmore

1670
00:55:19,910 --> 00:55:19,680
whether it's a charlie morley whether

1671
00:55:22,230 --> 00:55:19,920
it's

1672
00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:22,240
in in really appreciating the

1673
00:55:25,430 --> 00:55:23,359
historicity

1674
00:55:27,990 --> 00:55:25,440
appreciating what it is that brings them

1675
00:55:30,470 --> 00:55:28,000
to that particular view of reality

1676
00:55:32,630 --> 00:55:30,480
how we can understand the limitations of

1677
00:55:34,630 --> 00:55:32,640
our own views i think that perhaps maybe

1678
00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:34,640
the most important point

1679
00:55:38,630 --> 00:55:37,040
that we are all really limited and this

1680
00:55:40,789 --> 00:55:38,640
is what we never finished that i want to

1681
00:55:42,309 --> 00:55:40,799
just ping back for just a quick second

1682
00:55:44,309 --> 00:55:42,319
when we are talking about those two

1683
00:55:47,030 --> 00:55:44,319
vectors of human development

1684
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:47,040
in my article on the evolution of abuse

1685
00:55:49,990 --> 00:55:48,400
one of the most important vectors that

1686
00:55:51,430 --> 00:55:50,000
comes into play right here is the vector

1687
00:55:53,109 --> 00:55:51,440
of the growing up

1688
00:55:55,589 --> 00:55:53,119
where we have these structures of

1689
00:55:57,750 --> 00:55:55,599
consciousness these developmental levels

1690
00:55:59,910 --> 00:55:57,760
that by definition are fundamental

1691
00:56:01,190 --> 00:55:59,920
archetypal blind spots we don't see that

1692
00:56:02,710 --> 00:56:01,200
we don't see

1693
00:56:04,309 --> 00:56:02,720
and so i do want to throw that back into

1694
00:56:04,789 --> 00:56:04,319
the mix because i do think this is

1695
00:56:06,789 --> 00:56:04,799
really

1696
00:56:08,390 --> 00:56:06,799
important that in order in a certain way

1697
00:56:10,069 --> 00:56:08,400
it's circumambulating everything we're

1698
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:10,079
talking about

1699
00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:13,200
that we have these these complex vectors

1700
00:56:16,309 --> 00:56:14,240
of psycho

1701
00:56:18,470 --> 00:56:16,319
spiritual human development and if we

1702
00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:18,480
don't understand those two vectors alex

1703
00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:19,920
that's when we get into trouble

1704
00:56:22,870 --> 00:56:21,599
whether it's the christians and the

1705
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:22,880
catholics and the buddhists that

1706
00:56:27,829 --> 00:56:24,880
basically every human

1707
00:56:29,190 --> 00:56:27,839
if we don't realize that we have these

1708
00:56:31,670 --> 00:56:29,200
two these are the grossest what are

1709
00:56:34,549 --> 00:56:31,680
called orienting generalizations

1710
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:34,559
one vector of psychological structural

1711
00:56:37,510 --> 00:56:35,680
development

1712
00:56:38,710 --> 00:56:37,520
what john wellwood talked about is

1713
00:56:40,710 --> 00:56:38,720
growing up

1714
00:56:41,990 --> 00:56:40,720
the other vector the state level of

1715
00:56:44,150 --> 00:56:42,000
waking up

1716
00:56:45,990 --> 00:56:44,160
to me what i'd like to to drive home

1717
00:56:46,789 --> 00:56:46,000
with your teacher with your audience is

1718
00:56:49,750 --> 00:56:46,799
that

1719
00:56:51,670 --> 00:56:49,760
understanding the complexity and really

1720
00:56:53,349 --> 00:56:51,680
paying homage and allegiance to the

1721
00:56:54,309 --> 00:56:53,359
power of these two vectors of human

1722
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:54,319
development

1723
00:56:58,309 --> 00:56:56,720
are really important because otherwise

1724
00:56:59,270 --> 00:56:58,319
then our knowledge our relationship to

1725
00:57:01,030 --> 00:56:59,280
ourselves and to the

1726
00:57:02,950 --> 00:57:01,040
into the world is really limited and

1727
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:02,960
then we're we're really lost

1728
00:57:07,589 --> 00:57:04,799
just like mark twain said it's not what

1729
00:57:10,630 --> 00:57:07,599
you don't know that gets you in trouble

1730
00:57:12,950 --> 00:57:10,640
it's what you do know that just ain't so

1731
00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:12,960
and so to me it's like what are in fact

1732
00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:14,720
these archetypal blind spots

1733
00:57:20,309 --> 00:57:17,920
what if that ain't so andrew it's like

1734
00:57:21,190 --> 00:57:20,319
when people get spinning off on the

1735
00:57:24,230 --> 00:57:21,200
integral stuff

1736
00:57:25,270 --> 00:57:24,240
and the wake up grow up stuff and i just

1737
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:25,280
offered you

1738
00:57:28,789 --> 00:57:27,760
an alternative perspective an

1739
00:57:31,990 --> 00:57:28,799
alternative view

1740
00:57:34,950 --> 00:57:32,000
and that's not to shout down yours

1741
00:57:35,510 --> 00:57:34,960
i want to put yours on the table but i

1742
00:57:37,670 --> 00:57:35,520
want you

1743
00:57:38,710 --> 00:57:37,680
also to have mine on the table yeah

1744
00:57:42,549 --> 00:57:38,720
totally

1745
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:42,559
get that vibe and i don't get that vibe

1746
00:57:46,789 --> 00:57:45,040
not just from you i don't get that vibe

1747
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:46,799
from so many people in the non-dual

1748
00:57:49,990 --> 00:57:47,440
community

1749
00:57:51,750 --> 00:57:50,000
and they put it alex let me ask you this

1750
00:57:54,789 --> 00:57:51,760
what what is the approach when you say

1751
00:57:56,470 --> 00:57:54,799
that what you're putting on the table

1752
00:57:58,230 --> 00:57:56,480
tell me more about articulate

1753
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:58,240
specifically what is that that you're

1754
00:58:00,870 --> 00:57:59,280
referring to

1755
00:58:04,150 --> 00:58:00,880
so when i played the clip from tom

1756
00:58:05,589 --> 00:58:04,160
zenzer he's talking about a protocol

1757
00:58:08,549 --> 00:58:05,599
because one of the things i appreciate

1758
00:58:10,390 --> 00:58:08,559
about tom's work is it's clinical work

1759
00:58:11,990 --> 00:58:10,400
he's worked with hundreds of patients

1760
00:58:14,150 --> 00:58:12,000
he's tested it out

1761
00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:14,160
he's seen when it works when it doesn't

1762
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:15,760
work he's tried to test it try and

1763
00:58:19,190 --> 00:58:17,200
refine it

1764
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:19,200
he has a different model than wake up

1765
00:58:24,470 --> 00:58:21,520
grow up that's not the model

1766
00:58:25,589 --> 00:58:24,480
the model is that your ego states can

1767
00:58:29,109 --> 00:58:25,599
separate

1768
00:58:31,510 --> 00:58:29,119
and that separation can lead to

1769
00:58:32,230 --> 00:58:31,520
kind of a reduction in your immune

1770
00:58:35,430 --> 00:58:32,240
system

1771
00:58:38,789 --> 00:58:35,440
from being interfered with by

1772
00:58:41,349 --> 00:58:38,799
spirit entities okay so okay again

1773
00:58:42,230 --> 00:58:41,359
and this isn't my i'm not on board with

1774
00:58:44,470 --> 00:58:42,240
this

1775
00:58:45,750 --> 00:58:44,480
okay i just i'm just drawing out the

1776
00:58:47,670 --> 00:58:45,760
fact that this

1777
00:58:50,309 --> 00:58:47,680
is not consistent with what you're

1778
00:58:52,470 --> 00:58:50,319
saying this is not wake up grow up

1779
00:58:54,390 --> 00:58:52,480
it's something different and what i'm

1780
00:58:56,549 --> 00:58:54,400
really the whole point of

1781
00:58:58,470 --> 00:58:56,559
this project that i've been on is just

1782
00:59:00,230 --> 00:58:58,480
to show how we're totally how we've

1783
00:59:02,789 --> 00:59:00,240
accepted

1784
00:59:03,990 --> 00:59:02,799
the ineptitude that the intellectuals

1785
00:59:06,230 --> 00:59:04,000
have for dealing with

1786
00:59:07,109 --> 00:59:06,240
this for someone to say god damn that's

1787
00:59:09,670 --> 00:59:07,119
right

1788
00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:09,680
i have to figure out whether andrew's

1789
00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:11,760
right or whether alex is right

1790
00:59:15,990 --> 00:59:13,920
so you're hue urban at ohio state you

1791
00:59:18,470 --> 00:59:16,000
got to say stop the presses

1792
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:18,480
stop the research to stop all the

1793
00:59:21,670 --> 00:59:19,520
about

1794
00:59:22,630 --> 00:59:21,680
it only matters what people believe i

1795
00:59:25,829 --> 00:59:22,640
have to get to

1796
00:59:27,670 --> 00:59:25,839
some kind of bedrock of what is the

1797
00:59:28,309 --> 00:59:27,680
nature of this extended consciousness

1798
00:59:31,510 --> 00:59:28,319
realm

1799
00:59:33,190 --> 00:59:31,520
not just talk about feelings and beliefs

1800
00:59:35,750 --> 00:59:33,200
and the rest of that

1801
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,760
we may never know i mean but you seem to

1802
00:59:40,069 --> 00:59:37,440
be interested in science when you say

1803
00:59:41,349 --> 00:59:40,079
sleep on your right side and close your

1804
00:59:43,190 --> 00:59:41,359
nostril

1805
00:59:45,670 --> 00:59:43,200
which i'm going to try tonight i'm not

1806
00:59:48,230 --> 00:59:45,680
against that i'm biohacking all the time

1807
00:59:48,710 --> 00:59:48,240
so i'm in ice baths i'm doing yoga i'm

1808
00:59:50,789 --> 00:59:48,720
try

1809
00:59:52,230 --> 00:59:50,799
everything as a bile act because i want

1810
00:59:54,789 --> 00:59:52,240
to get to some of these states

1811
00:59:56,069 --> 00:59:54,799
and as you say in your book experience

1812
00:59:58,630 --> 00:59:56,079
does kind of hook us

1813
01:00:00,789 --> 00:59:58,640
in but i think we have a real blind spot

1814
01:00:03,910 --> 01:00:00,799
when it comes to

1815
01:00:06,309 --> 01:00:03,920
really taking a a real bite

1816
01:00:07,990 --> 01:00:06,319
into these extended consciousness realms

1817
01:00:11,430 --> 01:00:08,000
and trying to figure out

1818
01:00:12,630 --> 01:00:11,440
how we might come to pre-scientific but

1819
01:00:14,870 --> 01:00:12,640
at least

1820
01:00:16,789 --> 01:00:14,880
somewhat scientific understanding of

1821
01:00:17,349 --> 01:00:16,799
what's going on without just leaning on

1822
01:00:19,030 --> 01:00:17,359
some

1823
01:00:20,710 --> 01:00:19,040
wisdom tradition saying oh it must be

1824
01:00:22,710 --> 01:00:20,720
that because that's what the buddha said

1825
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:22,720
well no that's not true my friend i mean

1826
01:00:26,950 --> 01:00:24,960
again i hope you understand this that

1827
01:00:29,510 --> 01:00:26,960
even the buddha himself said but

1828
01:00:32,069 --> 01:00:29,520
buddhism is not a belief system buddhism

1829
01:00:35,190 --> 01:00:32,079
is an anti-belief system it's a it's a

1830
01:00:37,910 --> 01:00:35,200
it's an unbelief system it's not better

1831
01:00:38,549 --> 01:00:37,920
better than most right yes yeah and

1832
01:00:40,390 --> 01:00:38,559
exactly

1833
01:00:42,150 --> 01:00:40,400
and this is in the very deepest sense

1834
01:00:44,390 --> 01:00:42,160
buddhism is empirical i'm not going to

1835
01:00:46,470 --> 01:00:44,400
say it's scientific because i agree with

1836
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:46,480
evan thompson's very lucid

1837
01:00:50,309 --> 01:00:48,960
attack on the exceptionalism and the

1838
01:00:52,230 --> 01:00:50,319
kind of elitism of thinking that

1839
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:52,240
buddhism is somehow a science of mind i

1840
01:00:56,549 --> 01:00:53,440
think there's a lot of

1841
01:00:57,670 --> 01:00:56,559
traction to what he says but the the

1842
01:00:59,510 --> 01:00:57,680
great thing about these wisdom

1843
01:01:01,190 --> 01:00:59,520
traditions and it's again why i am an

1844
01:01:03,030 --> 01:01:01,200
allegiance with them

1845
01:01:05,030 --> 01:01:03,040
is because of their empirical nature

1846
01:01:08,150 --> 01:01:05,040
they're they're not based on

1847
01:01:08,549 --> 01:01:08,160
beliefs and conjecture they're based on

1848
01:01:12,630 --> 01:01:08,559
here's

1849
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:12,640
enlightened state

1850
01:01:16,470 --> 01:01:14,160
here's a hypothesis there's this thing

1851
01:01:18,789 --> 01:01:16,480
called lucid dream lucid sleep

1852
01:01:20,710 --> 01:01:18,799
and then here's a way to actually bring

1853
01:01:21,829 --> 01:01:20,720
this into your own experience and so

1854
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:21,839
that empirical

1855
01:01:25,349 --> 01:01:24,720
approach the ability to test it to find

1856
01:01:27,349 --> 01:01:25,359
out

1857
01:01:29,510 --> 01:01:27,359
for yourself whether this speaks to you

1858
01:01:31,670 --> 01:01:29,520
or not is really what's important

1859
01:01:33,430 --> 01:01:31,680
and yeah i mean i guess that's where i

1860
01:01:35,109 --> 01:01:33,440
rest and that's one reason i take refuge

1861
01:01:36,789 --> 01:01:35,119
in those approaches because they're they

1862
01:01:39,349 --> 01:01:36,799
don't really espouse

1863
01:01:40,470 --> 01:01:39,359
belief they espouse criticality and in

1864
01:01:43,589 --> 01:01:40,480
fact

1865
01:01:45,270 --> 01:01:43,599
the buddha himself said as with socrates

1866
01:01:47,270 --> 01:01:45,280
questions are more important than

1867
01:01:48,870 --> 01:01:47,280
answers the questions are what's really

1868
01:01:51,589 --> 01:01:48,880
important how you

1869
01:01:53,030 --> 01:01:51,599
sound the mind in other directions

1870
01:01:55,589 --> 01:01:53,040
they're conducive

1871
01:01:57,190 --> 01:01:55,599
to the inquiry into reality or not and

1872
01:01:59,430 --> 01:01:57,200
even heisenberg

1873
01:02:00,549 --> 01:01:59,440
very famously said what we discover in

1874
01:02:03,990 --> 01:02:00,559
science

1875
01:02:05,349 --> 01:02:04,000
is not reality itself but reality is

1876
01:02:07,910 --> 01:02:05,359
this revealed by

1877
01:02:09,109 --> 01:02:07,920
our methods of investigation and so

1878
01:02:11,750 --> 01:02:09,119
therefore to me

1879
01:02:13,029 --> 01:02:11,760
again it's like it's how we ask the

1880
01:02:15,829 --> 01:02:13,039
questions

1881
01:02:16,870 --> 01:02:15,839
where we direct our intentions where we

1882
01:02:19,109 --> 01:02:16,880
direct our our

1883
01:02:20,390 --> 01:02:19,119
efforts and then reality in a certain

1884
01:02:23,430 --> 01:02:20,400
sense is cooperative

1885
01:02:25,510 --> 01:02:23,440
reality will disclose itself based on

1886
01:02:27,029 --> 01:02:25,520
the kind of investigatory lens that we

1887
01:02:29,029 --> 01:02:27,039
bring to it

1888
01:02:30,710 --> 01:02:29,039
and so i i think that's what's what's

1889
01:02:32,549 --> 01:02:30,720
somewhat important here and that people

1890
01:02:34,390 --> 01:02:32,559
have different lenses

1891
01:02:35,670 --> 01:02:34,400
some are more in resonance with reality

1892
01:02:38,390 --> 01:02:35,680
than others some

1893
01:02:40,470 --> 01:02:38,400
send them barking up the wrong tree

1894
01:02:42,549 --> 01:02:40,480
versus trying to find the right one

1895
01:02:44,390 --> 01:02:42,559
and so to me it's like honoring that

1896
01:02:46,390 --> 01:02:44,400
understanding that acknowledging

1897
01:02:48,230 --> 01:02:46,400
the kind of messiness of the whole thing

1898
01:02:50,390 --> 01:02:48,240
and then realize we're all

1899
01:02:53,029 --> 01:02:50,400
more or less trying to do the best

1900
01:02:54,710 --> 01:02:53,039
within the limitations of what we have

1901
01:02:56,309 --> 01:02:54,720
so i mean somewhere in there than kind

1902
01:02:57,510 --> 01:02:56,319
of a handful of noodles that i throw

1903
01:03:00,470 --> 01:02:57,520
against the wall

1904
01:03:02,470 --> 01:03:00,480
fair enough excellent really our guest

1905
01:03:02,789 --> 01:03:02,480
again has been andrew holicek and he's

1906
01:03:06,069 --> 01:03:02,799
been

1907
01:03:07,190 --> 01:03:06,079
super kind and generous with his time

1908
01:03:09,829 --> 01:03:07,200
and to withstand

1909
01:03:11,029 --> 01:03:09,839
and put up with my badgering questions

1910
01:03:11,990 --> 01:03:11,039
there's a couple of books you're going

1911
01:03:14,470 --> 01:03:12,000
to want to check out

1912
01:03:15,029 --> 01:03:14,480
and i wanted to tell us more about that

1913
01:03:17,029 --> 01:03:15,039
and he

1914
01:03:18,549 --> 01:03:17,039
some of the upcoming books he has in the

1915
01:03:21,190 --> 01:03:18,559
works it sounds like but

1916
01:03:21,829 --> 01:03:21,200
dream yoga preparing to die are two of

1917
01:03:23,910 --> 01:03:21,839
them

1918
01:03:25,670 --> 01:03:23,920
andrew what else is coming up for you

1919
01:03:27,510 --> 01:03:25,680
and thank you thank you alex for

1920
01:03:29,589 --> 01:03:27,520
that's always appreciated when i can set

1921
01:03:31,109 --> 01:03:29,599
up my lemonade stand for just a second

1922
01:03:32,789 --> 01:03:31,119
yeah i have two books coming out this

1923
01:03:35,109 --> 01:03:32,799
summer one is a

1924
01:03:36,230 --> 01:03:35,119
kind of a more kind of prequel

1925
01:03:39,029 --> 01:03:36,240
entry-level book

1926
01:03:39,670 --> 01:03:39,039
called the lucid dreaming workbook it's

1927
01:03:41,990 --> 01:03:39,680
kind of a

1928
01:03:43,510 --> 01:03:42,000
more on-ramp to the practice of lucid

1929
01:03:45,430 --> 01:03:43,520
dreaming altogether

1930
01:03:46,630 --> 01:03:45,440
and then on the complete other end of

1931
01:03:49,510 --> 01:03:46,640
the extreme is a

1932
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:49,520
very deep dive this is um the second

1933
01:03:53,990 --> 01:03:51,839
book in a trilogy i'm writing

1934
01:03:55,910 --> 01:03:54,000
for my publisher sounds true this one's

1935
01:03:57,829 --> 01:03:55,920
called dreams of light

1936
01:03:59,190 --> 01:03:57,839
the profound daytime practice of lucid

1937
01:04:02,549 --> 01:03:59,200
dreaming and this is a

1938
01:04:05,270 --> 01:04:02,559
deep exploration of the daytime practice

1939
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:05,280
of lucid dreaming dream yoga which is

1940
01:04:09,829 --> 01:04:07,520
called the practice of a loose reform

1941
01:04:11,750 --> 01:04:09,839
and the science that supports it the

1942
01:04:12,309 --> 01:04:11,760
meditations that help you reveal it and

1943
01:04:14,950 --> 01:04:12,319
the reason

1944
01:04:16,230 --> 01:04:14,960
i wrote this book alex is because as you

1945
01:04:19,029 --> 01:04:16,240
probably know

1946
01:04:21,190 --> 01:04:19,039
lucid dreaming promises a great deal

1947
01:04:23,109 --> 01:04:21,200
promises a lot but it's hard to deliver

1948
01:04:24,549 --> 01:04:23,119
on these promises there's lucidity is

1949
01:04:27,510 --> 01:04:24,559
not such an easy thing

1950
01:04:27,829 --> 01:04:27,520
and so this book was written as a way to

1951
01:04:29,829 --> 01:04:27,839
give

1952
01:04:31,349 --> 01:04:29,839
people a different set of skill

1953
01:04:33,910 --> 01:04:31,359
practices

1954
01:04:35,829 --> 01:04:33,920
they allow one to realize the same kind

1955
01:04:38,309 --> 01:04:35,839
of dimensions of insight that lucid

1956
01:04:41,190 --> 01:04:38,319
dreaming and dream yoga bring about

1957
01:04:43,109 --> 01:04:41,200
using daytime methods and so it's again

1958
01:04:45,750 --> 01:04:43,119
this larger charter

1959
01:04:46,870 --> 01:04:45,760
of using these great gifts from the east

1960
01:04:49,510 --> 01:04:46,880
and the west

1961
01:04:50,069 --> 01:04:49,520
is basically a way to perhap perhaps

1962
01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:50,079
invite

1963
01:04:54,470 --> 01:04:52,720
a development of the human condition how

1964
01:04:56,789 --> 01:04:54,480
can we actually be

1965
01:04:58,710 --> 01:04:56,799
be more awake be more lucid and

1966
01:04:59,270 --> 01:04:58,720
therefore be of benefit to ourselves and

1967
01:05:01,270 --> 01:04:59,280
others so

1968
01:05:02,789 --> 01:05:01,280
thanks for the opportunity to plug those

1969
01:05:04,630 --> 01:05:02,799
i'm always grateful when people

1970
01:05:06,309 --> 01:05:04,640
provide that for me so i'm really

1971
01:05:08,150 --> 01:05:06,319
excited about both books

1972
01:05:09,430 --> 01:05:08,160
but the dreams of light book is one i'm

1973
01:05:11,430 --> 01:05:09,440
really quite excited about because it's

1974
01:05:13,670 --> 01:05:11,440
a it's a pretty deep dive so

1975
01:05:14,870 --> 01:05:13,680
thanks for that well that's awesome

1976
01:05:17,990 --> 01:05:14,880
andrew and again

1977
01:05:20,230 --> 01:05:18,000
it's very encouraging for me

1978
01:05:22,390 --> 01:05:20,240
when people can't have these kind of

1979
01:05:24,630 --> 01:05:22,400
sometimes uncomfortable but

1980
01:05:26,470 --> 01:05:24,640
too infrequently done kind of

1981
01:05:27,430 --> 01:05:26,480
conversation so thanks for hanging in

1982
01:05:30,870 --> 01:05:27,440
moving with me

1983
01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:30,880
and all that all right appreciate it

1984
01:05:35,829 --> 01:05:32,880
thanks to andrew for joining me today on

1985
01:05:37,829 --> 01:05:35,839
skeptico and a special thanks to jp a

1986
01:05:40,309 --> 01:05:37,839
skeptical listener who

1987
01:05:42,230 --> 01:05:40,319
helped me set up this interview jp i

1988
01:05:43,990 --> 01:05:42,240
hope we got what we wanted

1989
01:05:45,990 --> 01:05:44,000
this one it may be different than what

1990
01:05:46,789 --> 01:05:46,000
we thought so at any rate the one

1991
01:05:49,029 --> 01:05:46,799
question i t

1992
01:05:50,630 --> 01:05:49,039
up from this interview is the haters

1993
01:05:54,150 --> 01:05:50,640
ball kind of question

1994
01:05:56,950 --> 01:05:54,160
and that is it's nice to be nice

1995
01:05:59,029 --> 01:05:56,960
but is it good to be nice i mean this is

1996
01:06:01,029 --> 01:05:59,039
kind of a deep skeptical question but

1997
01:06:02,870 --> 01:06:01,039
maybe it's kind of pretentious to even

1998
01:06:03,589 --> 01:06:02,880
think we can answer any of these

1999
01:06:05,910 --> 01:06:03,599
questions

2000
01:06:08,150 --> 01:06:05,920
but if we can i kind of play off the

2001
01:06:10,470 --> 01:06:08,160
idea that donald hoffman threw out a few

2002
01:06:13,750 --> 01:06:10,480
episodes ago and that is

2003
01:06:15,109 --> 01:06:13,760
if we are going to speak let's try and

2004
01:06:17,990 --> 01:06:15,119
be as precise

2005
01:06:19,829 --> 01:06:18,000
as possible so for hoffman that's

2006
01:06:22,309 --> 01:06:19,839
mathematics and that has some

2007
01:06:24,870 --> 01:06:22,319
nice aspects in terms of being precise

2008
01:06:28,630 --> 01:06:24,880
but also has some limitations as well

2009
01:06:32,069 --> 01:06:28,640
but maybe precise in this case means

2010
01:06:33,109 --> 01:06:32,079
sometimes not being so nice i guess

2011
01:06:35,109 --> 01:06:33,119
there's a question

2012
01:06:36,950 --> 01:06:35,119
in there somewhere let me know your

2013
01:06:38,309 --> 01:06:36,960
thoughts join me over on the skeptical

2014
01:06:41,109 --> 01:06:38,319
forum

2015
01:06:42,630 --> 01:06:41,119
or just drop me a note let me know what

2016
01:06:45,109 --> 01:06:42,640
you think

2017
01:06:45,990 --> 01:06:45,119
i have some good stuff coming up stay

2018
01:06:50,140 --> 01:06:46,000
with me for all of

2019
01:06:58,829 --> 01:06:50,150
that until next time take care bye for